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Early Phoebus spirit stove

Discussion in 'Phoebus' started by presscall, Nov 22, 2014.

  1. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

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    A technically more sophisticated but less ornate pattern of spirit stove appears in the earliest (1930) Phoebus catalogue in the Stove Reference Library here on CCS and the art nouveau decorative detailing in this stove's design suggests it's from around 1910, or a bit later

    1416681270-1.JPG


    MJR logo (Metallwarenfabrik Josef Rosenthal) - Phoebus

    1416681277-2.JPG


    Öffnen - to open, and Zudrehen - to turn off (a tap)

    1416681284-3.JPG


    Very art nouveau cast ironwork

    1416681292-4.JPG


    Architectural qualities on such a utilitarian object always gets my vote

    1416681305-5.JPG

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    A fibre control wheel

    1416681329-6.JPG


    The vapouriser/burner. A simple design but well constructed

    1416681383-7.JPG


    I said at the outset that more sophisticated Phoebus spirit stoves came along later and this is simply a priming cup and a central jet

    1416681392-8.JPG


    I was eager to see how the burner performed but first had to clean out the filter/vapourising roll of fine-mesh brass gauze

    1416681962-9.JPG


    1416681974-10.JPG


    Cleaned in an ultrasonic bath. Although it's a bit torn, I re-used the gauze because I'd none in stock of such fine mesh and wanted to be sure I was getting the authentic as-designed performance out of the burner

    1416681985-11.JPG


    Priming right through maximum output and finally a simmer. I'm delighted with the way it worked. very quick to get going and very controllable. Seems just to sip fuel too

    1416682004-12.JPG

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    1416682029-14.JPG

    1416682045-15.JPG

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    Time for tea ...

    1416682114-18.JPG


    ... and a bit later, coffee

    1416682129-19.JPG


    John
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2015
  2. 1966dave

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    Beautiful stove....and photographs!





    Dave
     
  3. linux_author

    linux_author United States Subscriber

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    a functional work of art - very nice!

    willie
    a meths-burner fan on the Gulf of Mexico
     
  4. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Hi Dave, Willie.

    'Less is more' when it comes to the charm of the burner, which prompted me to get a couple more pics to capture the flame pattern, reminiscent of that on a petrol coil burner self-pressurising stove. Much bigger jet aperture on this Phoebus of course, being a gravity-fed alcohol stove

    1416690898-20.JPG

    1416690907-21.JPG

    John
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2015
  5. Wim

    Wim Belgium Subscriber

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    That truly is a very beautiful stove John! I'm not that much into alco stoves, but that one would be a keeper for sure!

    All the best,

    Wim
     
  6. mr optimus

    mr optimus United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Hi John exquisite spirit stove and pictured post.
    I agree john the iron work is a great example of Art Nouveau, it could be later than 1910 in fact could be a little before.
    Another brilliant example to your brilliant collection John.
     
  7. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Hi John, what a great stove. A real work of art, whether in operation or merely sitting there.
    From the photo of the brass mesh and your knowledge of its overall dimensions, you should be able to estimate the no. of wires per inch, and approximate wire diameter.
    It is possible that the mesh I obtained recently is similar, and we could make a replacement vaporiser gauze.

    http://classiccampstoves.com/threads/28557

    Best Regards,
    George.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2015
  8. Dutch_Peter

    Dutch_Peter Netherlands Subscriber

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    Very Nice! Art, stove, fire, alcohol, tea and beauty all in one! It's on my want-list
     
  9. kerry460

    kerry460 Australia Subscriber

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    very nice and it is very ornate for something so simple. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

    cheers
    kerry
     
  10. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Cheers all.

    I'm grateful for the offer of helping out with replacement gauze George but there are no symptoms of the original piece - now it's been cleaned - reducing the performance so I reckon it's good for a while longer, maybe another 100 years.

    I've heard you say you've retained original cork pips in NRV's when they've still worked so I know you'll understand where I'm coming from.

    I've not come across a roll of brass gauze used for a spirit stove filter before but it's an interesting alternative to the usual asbestos fibre ones - and much better than the type bound in a steel spiral that tend to rust and block the vapouriser tube.

    John
     
  11. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Hi John, metal mesh gauze seem to have multiple functions in classic stoves and lamps. It finds use as :

    1. a filter element
    2. surge restrictor
    3. vaporiser element,
    4. and also as a wick.

    The small Lamb stoves were advertised as having a metal mesh wick, as a unique selling point as it avoided the possibility of charring, which cotton wicks were prone to:

    http://classiccampstoves.com/threads/211

    In your alcohol stove I suspect the metal gauze is fulfilling all of these functions.

    I was thinking that it might be interesting to fit a fine brass mesh wick to a Primus 71, Optimus 80, or Svea 123 to see if it functions and offers any advantage over a cotton wick.
    Best Regards,
    George.
     
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  12. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Interesting proposition, George. Given the Lamb stove precedent why not, although I've never removed or otherwise accessed my Lamb stove's wick to examine it first-hand.

    The other criteria met of heat conductivity (to aid vapourisation), filtering efficiency, preventing fuel surge and durability, the gauze roll's effectiveness as a 'wick' is what the experiment hinges on I suppose.

    The 'wicking' action in a self-pressurising stove is helped considerably by pressurisation of the fuel of course, whereas a wick stove or candle depends solely on capilliary action of fuel in the wick fibres.

    That said, some capilliary action has to take place in a self-pressurising stove, serving as a bridge to carry the fuel over the airspace between fuel surface and riser tube. How well brass gauze could do that is crucial, but the Lamb example suggests it can.

    John
     
  13. dusan Czech Republic

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    Hi presscall, I think this stove is only make for MJR, while "O-Z" in Czech language is. I have see to with other logo, and in German "EIN-AUS" to. In Czech rep. is 1929 still to buy.

    See same stove by Austria/Other and my post to.

    See my stove K61 be Czech section with same burner.

    1416763547-O_Z.jpg
     
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  14. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

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    That's a useful contribution, Dusan, and I see that the stove you refer to in the 'Austrian - Other' section of the Stove Ref Gallery was by Gerson, Boehme and Rosenthal of Vienna, so an apparent connection there to this one of mine from the Rosenthal factory.

    The Czech connection arises I suppose with the nation's foundation following the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian empire at the end of World War 1. It seems a fair bet that the design was revived by the Czech factory you identified in that other post, and evidently remained in production into the late 1920's as you say. Having used this Phoebus a lot this weekend I can see why, it's a great little performer!

    Incidentally, the other spirit stoves I have are silent burners. This Phoebus operates on a roarer burner principle, the jet stream from the jet outlet impacting on the vaporising tube as on a flame plate - so while not as noisy as some, it's no silent burner.

    Thanks again Dusan.

    John
     
  15. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Thanks to Dusan, it prompted me to do a bit more research and a geneology website establishes that it's not Gerson, (comma) Boehm and Rosenthal (three partners) but just two.

    Gerson Boehm, born in 1830, was the founder of a Viennese lamp and stove manufacturing company and he had a son Max and two daughters, Lena and Tillie. Both girls married, Tillie to a Mr Ittmann and Lena to Josef Rosenthal, the founder - ultimately - of the Phoebus brand.

    Gerson Boehm died in 1911 and it although I've not yet confirmed it, I think it's likely the company name didn't survive him, his son-in-law Josef taking over and manufacturing the product line as MJR (Metallwahrenfabrik Josef Rosenthal) products, subsequently Phoebus.

    So, my suggested timeline would be Gerson Boehm and Rosenthal products up to about 1911, then MJR to 1918 followed by the Austrian factory re-establishing itself after the war with Phoebus branded products and a Czech company manufacturing clones of the Gerson Boehm and Rosenthal era products.

    John
     
  16. dusan Czech Republic

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    Good work Jon with GB&R.
    "Czech connection"...newer ending story
    Boehm = Czech (Bohemia).
    Dusan
     
  17. dusan Czech Republic

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    Other version of this same stove with for me new and unknown Czechoslovakian logo.

    1421339136-vagisek1.jpg
    foto vagisek
     
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  18. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Clarifying the company timeline, thanks to @Radler.

    I'd narrowed down the onset of the change of name to MJR to some time after 1911. In THIS post Radler writes,

    Just a point to raise Radler. I've been referring to MJR as Metallwarenfabrik Josef Rosenthal but you have named it as Maschinenfabrik Josef Rosenthal. I trust your source is more reliable than mine!

    John
     
  19. Radler

    Radler Switzerland Subscriber

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    Hello presscall

    "Metallwarenfabrik" is correct and "Maschinenfabrik" is my fault. The company of Boehm and Rosenthal hat many faces during the times. The official name change is announced here:

    Screenshot - 08.11.2015 - 08:01:57 Amtsblatt Umbenennung 1916markiert.jpg
    Before WW I being a pioneer as fuel supplier for automobilists, they created the first net of selling points for car fuel in the Austrian Imperium and they were very successful. But they made also products like this big machine called "Eureka":

    Screenshot - 09.05.2016 - 01:47:31_Eureka.png

    At the point "K" air goes into the apparatus, at "T" naphtha is filled in and at "Y" and "V" a regulated (non explosive) mixture of air and vaporized naphtha with defined pressure (some cm water column) comes out to be distributed into a net.

    This machine was made to supply remote hotels or industrial plants with a gas which could be used in the same way as town gas, but much cheaper than town gas (carbon-gas).

    It took me a while to understand this product and its use and maybe it was just at this time when I wrote the wrong name "Maschinenfabrik" in the post of gieorgijewski. "Eureka" is really a machine, isn't it?

    Best Regards
    Radler

    PS. The "O <> Z" on your stove is just German. It means "offen" (open) and "zu" (closed) this was often used on many applications.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016

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