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MSR MF....DF.... or WHAT??!!!!

Discussion in 'MSR - Mountain Safety Research' started by Doc Mark, Feb 20, 2016.

  1. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    The question has been often asked, here at CCS, “Which MSR stove came first, the MF, or the DF, and how to you tell which is which?

    That question is one which we've tried to answer for many years, now, and nobody can agree as to which is actually which, though detailed opinions abound!! Here is one that I trust, and it's worth a read:

    http://classiccampstoves.com/threads/msr-dual-fuel-stove.30366/

    One thing is clear, MSR DID offer both a MF and a DF, in the days before the G and GK came to the fore. The question is, which one came first, and how to you tell it from the others? Good question. MY own belief is that the MF came first, and this was MSR's first attempt to create something akin to their excellent Model 9, that would also burn multiple fuels.

    Another thing I know, for sure, is that MSR first marketed and sold the original MF stove with a bare generator setup, which was flat, like yours, but had no wire wrappings yet. My own MF's instructions are dated July, 1975. I also know, for sure, that MSR had problems with the generator over-heating, from too much concentrated flame heat from the burner. So, they issued a sort of "errata", asking owners of the MF to wrap a bit of tin around their flat generators, to help diffuse the heat, and obviate the problems that had been reported to them by several customers. MSR also offered to send the 7/8" x 7/8" thin stainless steel to their customers who would send in a self-addressed, stamped envelope, too.

    Here's MSR's "errata" for the first MF stove:

    1341794261-Early_msr_stove_001_opt.jpg

    My MF came to me with the tin, or thin stainless steel piece, already wrapped about it's generator. In the next photo, you can see my own MF on the left, and how it was originally shipped by MSR, in the center, with the last version of the MF, or possibly the DF by then on the right, it's generator wrapped with round spring wire, just as is yours. Again, mine is on the left, but the other two belong to my good friend, Sam, up in Idaho, who had loaned them to me for a comparison photo and research. (Thanks, Mate!!) @idahostoveguy


    MF:MF:DF.jpg

    I now own one one of the later versions of the MF stove, and have come to believe that this one was really what MSR once called the DF, after they realized that it really was not going to work as a true multifuel stove. In point of fact, it wasn't until the GK was debuted that MSR finally had a really true Multifuel stove. What changed to make it so? Easy: the flat generator did not easily lend itself to removing the rod within it. It was with the G and GK that the round, braided cable finally replaced the earlier solid rod inside the fuel lines, and thereby, which finally allowed removal, and scouring of the fuel line. The GK, the generator also went from flat across the top, to round, which, with the addition of the braided wire cable, helped MSR to finally succeed!

    Here are a few photos of my own MF, and it's original pump, which is interestingly labeled "MSR Stove Model 9", along with the dated instructions, and it's original simmering device, sent by MSR. It was nothing more than that sent with their Model 9, too: a flat tin can lid!

    1.jpg

    2.jpg

    3.jpg

    4.jpg

    Remember, all these various models, were derived from the original MSR which Larry Penberthy designed, built, and marketed under the Mountain Safety Research banner, the venerable, and quite rare Model 9!! Though I dearly LOVE all the stoves in the Model 9 to X-GK EX family, it's Ol' #9 that is still the best of breed, when burning Coleman Fuel!! That scalloped burner bell, really gave the blue flame a lovely pattern, and it still captivates my heart! Here's a shot of it, taken at night, at CASG #7:

    DSC_0744.JPG

    If you are seeking more opinions on this, you can find them right here in our most excellent Stove Reference Gallery! Just as you got here, click "America", then "Mountain Safety Research", and you can read what others have suggested. Much good information to be had, but beware, as some of the dating information is off by 8-10 years, or so!! But, see if what I have shared here, makes sense to you. I truly believe my comments here, and the proof I have offered is logical; the proof is factual; and it makes perfect sense to me. In closing, I will borrow a fun phrase from Ol' Elmer Keith, which he used as a title for his legendary book, "Sixguns", when it comes to MSR, "Hell, I was there"!! ;) :content: Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  2. Metropolitantrout

    Metropolitantrout United States Subscriber

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    :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Great info I'm bound to revisit now the it's here. Thanks Doc!
     
  3. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    Howdy, MT,

    Thanks, as always, for your very kind comments, both here, and in the original place where I posted this. I think I'm getting this stuff pretty close the mark, and hope to expand on this type of post, soon, for the entire family in this line. Thanks, again, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  4. idahostoveguy

    idahostoveguy Subscriber

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    Awesome Mark! This is really good info you've put together. I'm glad you posted this as there started to be a few posts that were starting to confuse the issue and confuse me!. With the No. 9 coming out in 1973, I'm glad the paperwork shows the date of 1975 because that puts the multi-fuel in just the right spot.

    Your MSR No. 9 tag on your pump is also an indirect indicator of the stove's chronology and its ancestry. I'm sure, like other manufacturers, MSR used what parts and materials they had in their inventory to put together a cohesive whole.

    Have a great day!

    sam
     
  5. hikerduane

    hikerduane United States Subscriber

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    Doc,
    Food for thought. MSR issue 11 Newsletter & Catalog list a 9A at 17 oz. $37.50, 9-MF at 18 oz. $41.50, but in issue 12 list the 9A at 15 oz., $41.10, DF 16 oz. $45.25. Accessories have their own weights. Maybe we need to weigh our stoves? Their photos look the same in both issues of two models, neither show the generator to one side or the other.
    Duane

    Issue 11 March 1976, issue 12 March 1977
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  6. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    @idahostoveguy , @hikerduane

    Hi, Sam and Duane,

    Thanks, Guys! I, too, get confused by the plethora of posts that state things that are really off base. For some, it seems the more confusing and outlandish, the better, but I really think that, over all, we have made this far harder than it really is. The truth of it, is going to turn out to be fairly simple, and I hope to make that happen in a manner similar to what I've posted here. It can easily be done, but all preconceived notions need to be tossed out the window, and just list the facts, as we know them. The full story is going to be simple, for the most part, and very easy to understand.

    Duane, as far as weights, I have no idea how MSR was weighing their stoves, and with what accessories included.. I just checked my MF and MF/DF on a Postal scale and the results are nothing close to what you have listed from MSR! My MF weighs in at a portly 9 ounces, and the MF/DF is very close, at only 9.5 ounces!!! Hummmmm...... :-k:-k MSR must have included their pumps along with them. But, still, that shouldn't be that much difference. In fact, when I added in the weight of the original pump with the MF, it still only totals a meager 11.5 ounces. Still a few ounces shy of being what MSR listed. Any ideas, or thoughts? Great point, and I appreciate your having shared it here. Let see if, together, we can all make sense of the disparity in weights. Talk soon, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  7. hikerduane

    hikerduane United States Subscriber

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    Well Doc, I'm not a brainiac, so can only deduce so much before it all turns to Greek. I had issues on my home puter. so was not sure where the above link went, so was just now able. I kept getting disconnected this AM, so I'm in town now at the library posting. After posting the earlier reply, I did go out and fire up a couple old MSR's, one of which was the 9. Like you mentioned above, a nice, blue flame. I need to go back and locate the list that the stoves came out.

    Duane
     
  8. snwcmpr United States

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    Ha, I don't know if I can trust that guy. :)

    This a great read Doc, thank you.

    Ken in NC
     
  9. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    Howdy, Ken,

    Much appreciated, my Friend! I remember how excited I was, back when you found the wonderful stove you highlighted in the posted link above. I was very happy for you, and thankful that you shared it here. I was also very happy to see the documentation that you received with your wonderful stove!! Yep, I was happy on several fronts the day you posted that thread. Thanks, again, and talk soon. God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Mark
     
  10. snwcmpr United States

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    I have followed your posts on MSR stoves since i joined here. And there is so much information, I have had to read it again and again to just start to understand all of the small details that help to identify these stoves.

    I went out and pulled all of my, few, MSR stoves out.
    I looked at the 3 I have with the flat generator loop. 2 have a solid rod and one has a cable. The one with the cable is the one linked above.
    All 3 have wire wrapped around the generator.

    MSR newsletter 9 .. March 1975 referenced but the document is dated September 1975 has 2 stoves listed 9A & 9MF.

    Newsletters here:
    http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/blog/mountain-safety-research-newsletter-archives/
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
  11. snwcmpr United States

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    More in the saga of the Model 9 series stoves.
    Here are the 3 MF/DF stoves I have. I am not going to state all details.

    No date codes on any of them.
    All have the 'stubby' sparker.

    These 2 (9MF) have a solid rod in the fuel line.
    One is a blue color.
    MSR 9MF.JPG

    Now, what I believe to be the 9DF, as seen in the link above .... LINK.

    This one has a cable in the fuel line.
    Cotter pins in pump to hold parts together.
    MSR Model 9 stove tag.
    Instructions state MSR Dual Fuel Stove.
    Instructions note a NEW needle control valve,
    The instructions I received with this stove, located in the Library, are dated JUNE 1976.
    Blue color.
    G/GK box of a different size, larger, than later G/GK boxes I have seen.
    MSR 9DF.JPG


    Ken in NC
     
  12. oddball

    oddball United States Subscriber

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    Why would a reputable company like MSR develop the MF that burns 5 types of fuel then later manufacture the DF which only burns two types of fuel? This does not make sense.

    I believe the 1977 Maintenance Kit #22129, November 1981 Maintenance Kit #22129, and Maintenance Kit #22133 might have some answers. I’m certain there will be someone to argue these facts.

    I have transcribed the “Notes” section for easier reading.

    1977 - MSR Field Maintainable Stove Maintenance Kit #22129 – Front page
    01.jpg

    Note: This Maintenance Kit is designed for use with the ‘new’ MSR Field Maintainable Stove. The model G & the model G/K of this stove were first sold in Sept. of 1977. MSR stoves purchased prior to that time were known as model 9A or Dual-Fuel model. These earlier stoves require Spare Parts Kit #22130.

    September 1977 Maintenance Kit instructions – Back page
    02.jpg
    SNOWGOOSE - http://classiccampstoves.com/threads/msr-g-gk-maintainance-kit-basic.20230/

    1981 - MSR Field Maintainable Stove Maintenance Kit #22129 for Models G and GK
    03.jpg
    SNOWGOOSE - http://classiccampstoves.com/threads/msr-g-gk-maintenance-kit-comprehensive.20231/

    Notice both of these Maintenance Kits have the same number #22129 but this one does not include a date. We know this Maintenance Kit was made in November 1981 or later because the X-GK is included in the notes.

    Note: This Maintenance Kit is designed for use with the MSR Field Maintainable Stove models G and GK which were manufactured and sold September 1977 through October 1981. MSR stoves manufactured prior to that time were either known as 9A or M-F (multi-fuel) models. These earlier stoves require Maintenance Kit #22130. MSR stoves manufactured and sold after November 1981 are model X-GK and require Maintenance Kit #22133.

    Side Note: “MSR stoves manufactured and sold after November 1981” should actually read “MSR stoves manufactured and sold after October 1981” because the X-GK was introduced in November 1981. See Maintenance Kit #22133 below.

    MSR Field Maintainable Stove Maintenance Kit #22133 for Model X-GK
    04.jpg

    Note: This Maintenance Kit is designed for use with the “new” MSR Field Maintainable Stove – Model X-GK. The X-GK stove was first manufactured and sold in November 1981. MSR stoves manufactured prior to September 1977 were either known as 9A or M-F (multi-fuel) models. The 9A and M-F models require Maintenance Kit #22130. MSR stoves manufactured after September 1977 were known as model G or GK stoves and require Maintenance Kit #22129.

    The Maintenance Kits read Dual-Fuel before Multi-Fuel. Any opinions?
     
  13. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    Morning, oddball, and All,

    Your answers will be posted here later today, or early tomorrow. They are to the point, clear, and spot on the money. I made pdf copies of everything I need to prove my assertions, and will share those here, along with some very interesting photos! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc (who wishes that some of these posts would not be loaded down with things that only cause confusion. All will be made clear....)
     
  14. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

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    Oddball,
    A comment re MSR sourced info, flawed, but the best source imo (my only focus btw).
    Corporations make mistakes (all the time!). In contrast with your Maint Kit examples. The MF model is in a Mar 75 MSR newsletter (sourced from bi-annual catalog) and MF model is in an Oct 76 Backpacker ad. The DF model is in a March 77 MSR newsletter [nothing "new" here btw].
    I hate to offer opinion but seems obvious to consider IF (big IF) one of the documentation mistakes MSR made, IF there was, a mix-up between MF & DF on maint kit info... if you switch only the MF & DF on your paper, then it all agrees 100% with other creditable MSR info also recently being considered. I don't claim to have XGKs figured out btw but this seems worthy of considertaion.

    "Consider the source":
    MAINT KIT paper limited release (and instructions, not a regular release ie monthly, not widely distributed vs catalog) they do incl specific months & years.
    NEWSLETTER, Monthly... I'm not sure if there was a newsletter every month but they are monthly AND distributed and available to far more stovies than the papers included w/each kit or stove. The few newsletters I've seen include text from...
    CATALOGS, Bi-ANNUAL, WIDELY distributed and available to far more stovies than "instructions" etc. In real time catalogs were scrutinized by vendors and far more people. Corrections/updates would be routine.
    Note re Catalogs & 2006 chart, the reference to > years and > mid years, is an indicator that the source for the circa 2006 chart was the bi-annual catalogs <-- a stack of which I would love to see made available (maybe THE best source of info? and as yet untapped).

    WEBSITE ARTICLES refer to ANNUAL ("corporate") w/alot of problems BUT consider the source, if they chose to "round-off" or streamline-it, simplify, then reviewing articles they maybe a little better and one might find they're more accurate if within a year, roughly. It explains why a definite November 81 date becomes 1982 in a website article. Website articles are good but for several items we've previously seen more accurate details (we might want to be more accurate?).

    A fellow stovie sitting on a stack of vintage newsletters and catalogs could have alot of VERY helpful XGK input we've not yet seen (and could make things SO much easier).
    thx omc
     
  15. snwcmpr United States

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    +1 to that.

    "Just the facts, ma'am."
    Joe Friday

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  16. oddball

    oddball United States Subscriber

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    snwcmpr,
    Consider the Maintenance Kit instructions in my previous post to be the only proof of which stove was manufactured first, DF or MF. The first set of instructions dated 1977 reads Dual-Fuel and the other two are printed 4 years later and read Multi-Fuel. The answer would be Dual-Fuel. As I see it, this thread has yet to produce any facts of which stove came first other than the post that contains the Maintenance Kit instructions. So, isn’t that post based on facts?
     
  17. snwcmpr United States

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    To tag me, put the @ in front of snwcmpr. Like this @snwcmpr. I will then be notified of the post.

    I am not informed enough to argue this point with you.

    This MF has a solid rod, not a cable.
    http://classiccampstoves.com/attachments/t0000341-jpg.135660/
    It is one of the 2 MF stoves in my 9 to x-gk thread. I own that one now. No doubt it is an MF it has the sticker. Rod came before cable.

    I was not referring to you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016
  18. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    Gents,

    Our business is keeping me very busy, right now. Please be patient. ALL answers will be addressed, and absolute documentation will be offered, to support my statements.

    Doc
     
  19. oddball

    oddball United States Subscriber

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    I was going to start a New Thread but decided to put this information here in hopes of continuing the discussion of the MF and DF timeframe that stopped on February 24.

    This stove was on display at the MSR booth during the Outdoor Retailer 2011 trade show. This photograph was shot by a CCS member that attended the show.
    dual_fuel.jpg
    steve1000 - http://classiccampstoves.com/threads/msr-overview-from-outdoor-retailer-2011.19410/

    The same stove photographed and uploaded to trailspace.com.
    dual_fuel_02.jpg
    http://www.trailspace.com/blog/2011/08/17/not-so-new-msr-stoves.html

    A link to hikin_jim’s post with further discussion.
    http://classiccampstoves.com/threads/historical-msr-stove-photos.19096/

    And this one from eBay.
    04_crop.jpg

    Interesting, these stoves look very similar. See any similarities between these stoves and the Model 9? Seems like MSR did make this stove after all and it could be the original Model 9MF.

    There isn’t any documentation to support these stoves exist, not yet anyway, but these pictures are worth a thousand words. If these stoves were not manufactured by MSR, why would one of them be displayed by MSR at a trade show?
     
  20. geeves

    geeves New Zealand Subscriber

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    That is true. However if it was true why do they not appear in any collections of members here?
    It might be that MSR displayed prototypes at the show not production models. This is common at car shows where less than half the concept cars actually make it to production. It could even be that prototypes were the only historical stoves MSR had to display.
    Even then though those prototypes would of been snapped up long ago by collectors
     

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