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MSR Timeline from Model #9 to X-GK EX

Discussion in 'MSR - Mountain Safety Research' started by Doc Mark, Jan 21, 2016.

  1. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    Good Evening, All,

    Over the years, those who "were there" when MSR first brought out their first stove model, the venerable #9, have either passed on, or gotten lost in the shuffle. That has made dating the different MSR model in the X-GK Family rather difficult, and unfortunately, a good bit of incorrect misinformation has been posted here at CCS, over the years. I hope to clear all that up, and make things very easy to see, with a post that Drew Keegan, of MSR, sent me some time back. I was hoping to make a huge report on all this, with lots of photos, and other information substantiating the true dating of the different models, but it's been hard for me to find the time to actually put together all the info I have on hand. So, I decided to share the latest info from MSR, directly from Drew Keegan, who is in charge of stove development at MSR. Short and sweet, and very easy to understand, this should clear away all the confusion and misinformation that has been posted here, over the years. I hope you find it helpful. Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc (who loves the MSR X-GK Family of stoves, and wants to set the record straight, once and for all!!!)
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Afterburner Finland

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    Thank's Doc! :thumbup::clap: Very useful information in a short format! :D/

    We all are waiting the full history of MSR X-GK family with tons of photos and details, but no one has enough resources to do it...
     
  3. Metropolitantrout

    Metropolitantrout United States Subscriber

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    That's a great start Doc but we're still going to hold you to task for multi-media presentation :lol::lol::lol:. Is by Monday enough time????
     
  4. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

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    Doc, thx for bringing this. fwiw i'd say if you can't find time, you're off the hook, no pressure.

    all,
    The above attachment was quickly posted twice, in the other instance (&relevant here) Ken quickly noted "the DF was missed" .

    re Doc's "...dating the different MSR models in the X-GK Family [is] difficult, and... misinformation has been posted ...over years...
    I hope to ...make things very easy ...I decided to share the latest info from ...Drew Keegan [of MSR] ... Short ... easy to understand, should clear away all confusion and misinformation posted, over the years."

    WITH all due respect this post imo will not "clear away all the confusion and misinformation" re the XG-K family. Members will find conflicting / incomplete / misinformation that I too have gleaned, over much time, as well ](*,).

    Myself and MANY others "also want", what Doc wants, to see a post (from an author TBD) as Doc again described, a post or posts to accurately identify and date the different models of the X-GK family.

    July 2015 questions were re-initiated re details of the (XG-K's) MF & DF versions, those pesky questions remain.

    Doc I credit you with preserving and reintroducing (also in July 2015) the MSR chart here . Andy, may he rest in peace, posted the chart in 2006.
    I find the chart is accurate and I've asked in past posts if anyone is aware of inaccuracy, it's w/o challenge to-date. Is it possibly still the best XG-K timeline reference there is?

    Aug 2015 Ken posted X-GK's DF model (Jul 76) instructions here .
    Ken's post also links to Gotdibb's MF model (Jun 76) instructions for XG-K's Multifuel model ...

    Sep 2015, as XG-K confusion reigned, Sam in separate post contributed here, simply reminding us that (July 2104) MSR article describes Evolution of MSR XGK... on MSR website.

    With all due respect, readers will find for themselves, Drew's attachment above conflicts w/the explanation on MSR's own website :oops: and also does not jive w/other details above.
    Above readers can find the 4 sources of reference I added, granted it can be difficult.
    Recalling back to the (difficult) attempts to clarify the DF (&MF)... the 4 sources I note above were not part of "misinformation" I'm aware of.

    Myself, I'll continue to consider in high regard the chart Andy posted in '06, link above, as something to build on.
    There ARE, ALOT more verifiable details that have posted since '06 (yes, amidst verbose confusion), info that also does not conflict w/Andy's chart. These newer details are as mentioned amidst "other" info. and not yet presented in any consolidated / collated fashion.
    thx omc
    tag @Got Dibbs @idahostoveguy @Hazet @snwcmpr @Doc Mark ... no tag for @SNOWGOOSE?

    PS if Mods, Doc & AB want to delete any/all comments above it IS w/my blessing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2016
  5. snwcmpr United States

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    XGK came long after the DF.
    It is just instructions for DF not XGK DF.
     
  6. OMC

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    Doc, myself and others have adopted term "X-GK" / "X-GK family". to identify the entire family of stove models following the legendary No.9. I may have adopted it seeing it in some of MSR's information actually. Sorry, you did not catch that reference. It is in that context, I present your DF as
    X-GK's DF.
    I actually made similar mistake (XG-K) several times, I should have spelled it X-GK in all those instances as well. I can see the confusion this may cause some readers, again sorry, hope that clarifies at least that tiny piece. thx omc
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2016
  7. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    Greetings, All

    Sorry Ken, I thought you meant the Dragonfly, and not the Dual Fuel. Comes the dawn! :lol: I agree, that there are still some niggling details to tack down, but, my purpose in posting the info from MSR is to shine the light of truth on some very incorrect dating info, some of it quite detailed, about some of these stoves. In particular, Snowgoose, bless his heart, created and posted a dating guide, but he is off by at least 8 years, when discussing the X-GK II!! This post, alone, has caused much confusion, and misinformation about the actual dates of some of these models. I was "into MSR" much earlier than many folks here at CCS, and vividly recall with new models of the X-GK were unveiled, replacing those before it. Again, using the X-GK II as an example, it simply did NOT come into existence until the late 1980's, NOT, as Snowgoose has stated, in 1981!!! This is a fact, and not conjecture, and jives with ALL information that MSR has ever posted.

    At the only OSG (Oregon Stove Gathering), Drew and Steve Grind (then of MSR) came and camped with us for a few days. I talked, at great length, with Drew and also Steve, about the timeline of when certain changes come to be. The differentiation between the Model 9 and 9A, is now very easy to see, as are the same things that led to the Models G and GK. Their own transition to the X-GK is also fairly easy, with the exception of the fact that MSR made the changes in the GK, which led to the X-GK , on the GK! So, the last of the GK's are VERY similar, if not identical, to the first version of the X-GK!! :shock: :doh: I do believe that I can clear up "most" of the remaining questions on the dating of these stoves. With photos and comments on the details within them, I will work hard to do so, as I own all of the various models of the X-GK family, and all of the pumps that MSR has ever offered. I'll do my best, Gents, and hope the info will be of use to us all!

    One last thought, regarding the question of the MF/DF controversy: I asked Drew and Steve about that, too, and they had an interesting "take" on it. The felt that not all small changes in their stoves led to model name changes. They also said that it is their belief that MSR, like many other companies, also changed the names of certain models to clear up misunderstandings, or service problems of which MSR was made aware. Using the fuels that these stoves were stated to burn, it was found that auto fuel clogged up the early stoves, and since there was NO way to remove the fuel line cable (permanently installed), the clogging rendered such stoves useless. So, MSR changed their instructions, and made model changes to, first restrict, then allow the burning of such fuels in those same stoves. And, it wasn't until AFTER the last GK stoves were designed and sent, that MSR changed the name to X-GK!! That's why the last of the GK's and the first of the X-GK's, are virtually identical. Interesting, no!??? Yes, indeed, it is very interesting!!

    Thanks to those who have commented on this, and I'll finish this labor of love of mine, as time in our business allows, and then post it here, replete with photos, ads, and other information. Thanks, again, Gentlemen, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  8. snwcmpr United States

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    Cascade Designs put up a time line too. LINK
    Note the:
    Next-Gen Model 9 Stoves and read more for the....
    1975 – Model 9 DF Stove
    OMC, as much as I admire Doc, I have not adopted the line of stoves as the X-GK line. I think of them as MSR stoves. Each has it's own name.
    That was not the issue. You seem to misquote me every now and then. I do see now that you wished to add Doc's line of stoves to the name of my link.

    Thanks Doc
     
  9. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    Howdy, Ken,

    I agree with you, 100%! I would supposed that, those folks who call all of those stoves the "X-GK line", does not own any of them, or most certainly, not all of them! As of them has a definite personality, and it's own official name. I've always called each by it's Model name, and most everyone else I know that loves these stoves, do likewise.

    Thanks for the additional info from MSR! Drew continues to search the archives found at MSR, and has pored over the newsletters that they MSR used to publish for ever more information. He's a good man, and quite interested in finally fleshing out all the missing information for which we Stovies have long thirsted!!

    OMC, I must admit, that you do take quotes out of context on a somewhat regular basis, and at least for what you've quoted from me, have often come up and a completely different conclusion than what I actually wrote. I appreciate your wanting to share, but would caution you about quoting other folks, and most especially, taking things out of their original context. Just sayin'.........

    Thanks, again, for that extra info, Ken! I believe you sent that to me, but I misplaced it when posting today, and appreciate your having linked it here!! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  10. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

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    Doc, Ken,
    I try to focus on accurate stovie content, should we best proceed along those lines?. Is this criticism a direction we want to take this?

    It is you two piling-on again, critical of my input meanwhile both presenting blatant contradictions, again.
    Stovies/readers are a smart bunch and can take all this in, make of the comments what they may, I'm ok with that.

    I am not good at presentation.
    Doc, I am guilty as charged of butchering your text. Doing so IS misquote as well, true, so guilty BUT not w/intent to change the message. No one "likes" seeing their text hacked BUT repeating entire previous paragraphs is not w/o downside either.
    However in my defense and an important distinction: I don't think I presented your input out of context: I did NOT (as you have accused) come up with a completely different conclusion than what you actually wrote.
    It is NOT at all the case. I don't think I swayed your comment from what you said. Your complete text can be inserted and my post becomes overly redundant & EXTREMELY long... BUT with your complete text inserted, my message remains entirely unchanged (it will not change anything = I don't think I've taken your words out of context).
    Have I miss stepped in the past? yes absolutely, your criticism in-general noted and is not w/o merit in my case. I do accept that. we're moving-on I hope.

    Ken, For 1 you did not "get" the meaning of "X-GK's DF model" but after my explanation apparently you did "get it", I apologized for the confusion, we see using term X-GK can add confusion and we should rethink that, ok.
    So then, why continue the pile-on? again
    Re your initial criticism btw, you posted following...
    > the OP who used "X-GK Family" (yes you Doc) and
    > AB who used X-GK family. (MSR references this as a group too btw)
    BUT it is only "my" use of the term you take issue with? or wait that wasn't the issue?

    I'm FAR from perfect, admit mistakes, apologize and try to move on. I would like to move on and do prefer a focus on accurate stovie content.

    btw I do not see a "MF/DF controversy" we all do simply see questions involving these models that are not yet answered, that's it.
    It IS surprising (pathetic? I am not w/o blame) the many lengthy discussions w/o much collective progress (really since Andy's 2006 chart imo).
    thx omc
     
  11. snwcmpr United States

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    I will not respond in my 'response'.
     
  12. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark United States Subscriber

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    OMC,

    I apologize for having to say this, but unfortunately, I find your posts far too tedious, and much too convoluted, to easily read. In your effort to "make things more clear", at least for me, you muddy the waters. I recently looked back at quite a few of your very long, rambling posts, and found that, in many of them, you have been called out for making mistakes. You always apologize, and that's well and good. However, again, speaking only for myself, I would appreciate it if you refrained from posting your comments on my threads here at CCS. They make things far too hard to understand, and I would rather have my own interpretations stand on their own, free from your "take" on them. I do not write this in a mean-spirited way, but rather because I am tired of your pastiche of often unrelated bits from the posts of others, and feel that what you write does nothing more than obfuscate my intentions for what I have already posted. To me, your comments are rather like you have chosen them from a Chinese food menu: one from column A, and two from column B, and one from column C, all put together in a confusing manner. Also, at least in my posts, I find your comments contentious and oft-times, on the rude side.

    I also remember when you first came to CCS. You contacted me via PT, and wrote glowing accolades of my own participation at CCS. I was, of course, rather flattered, at first, but soon began to wonder about your sincerity in having made those comments. You started sending me PT after PT, asking myriad detailed questions about the Coleman 550B, and other stoves. I made measurements for you, sent details of every kind, and finally realized that you were never going to buy and use those stoves, but seemed to have some other purpose in asking your questions. I finally had "enough", and asked you to please do your own research, and to please stop sending me the endless PT's with questions. It was soon after that, that you began to pick at any detailed posts I wrote at CCS, and I then realized what your original intent had been, all along. Since I never see photos of your own stoves, nor see posts about how you have used them, I believe that you are, more of less, an "armchair Stovie", and that you seem to spend your days thinking of things to write about the experiences of others, and not your own.

    Again, I apologize for having to post such stern words here at CCS, but in truth, you have disregarded every hint I've sent your way in the past, and I must be more bold in my thoughts on this. As I wrote above, please refrain from making comments on my future posts. I do not appreciate your manner of picking my posts to death, and taking things out of context in creating your rambling, oft-times very hard to understand posts!!!

    Sincerely,
    Doc
     
  13. snwcmpr United States

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    +1
    Doc said it nicer than my first attempt, that I edited before sending.

    Ken in NC
     
  14. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

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    My sincere apologies to fellow stovies, i extend direct apology to Ken and Doc for this too.
    re "picking my posts to death"
    The OP attachment you present above is conflicted with most other timelines, the glaring example being Cascade/MSR's own website. You can call that picking it to death.

    re my "Is this criticism a direction we want to take this?"
    and you have gone there, again. i will respond. I still do NOT see examples of me "taking things out of context" btw, that would not be good and I want to do my level best NOT to do that, period.
    I am not good at presenting. I try to focus on accurate info., my interest IS now mostly history and how models developed, presenting inaccurate info goes against the mission of our site.
    Coleman stoves are a continued interest since age 12 (43 years), I am a fairly newbie collector. Action gallery posts ARE an absolute favorite to see but I don't intend to post there myself any time soon. You see if your criticism sticks I can freely accept it, and admit when I'm wrong. Most of the mud you sling is straw man crap. YOU might (sit, in an armchair) and read/ fact check this list you presented yourself?. You can refer to me as an armchair stovie if you like... and we certainly differ (diversity, oh my, heaven help us).

    Yes, there were many email exchanges and i did AND STILL DO have high regard for your stovie collection, experience and knowledge. However re 550s (straw man argument btw), most 550 exchanges were openly posted as I recall it. It is my opinion that your "please stop sending me the endless PT's with questions." ...never happened.
    I did stop sending you "hot tips" for rare stoves, hidden gems, I found, ...that, I do recall. (I obsessed w/stovie searches while unemployed when I joined the site). I stopped sending those messages to you and others all at the same time. Of the many (bothersome?) tips I sent, u did make some bids/purchases, yet most didn't interest you, I AM in amazement of how many diverse rare models "you already have".

    re the 550s You are describing me in a negative way here, again. You have my permission to date stamp the message from you to me re 550's w/you saying "please stop asking you for 550 details". That is a simple method towards resolving that difference, it either did or did not happen.
    That did or did not happen, and the DF and MF do have or do not have characteristics for stovies to identify these models.
    thx omc

    PS Doc you and I "opened" w/apologies, I accept your genuine apology you're not liking this either and I accept some of the criticism.

    102_2444.JPG
     
  15. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber

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    I'm dismayed. I have such affection for you guys @Doc Mark @snwcmpr @OMC and take much enjoyment in reading your individual contributions here on CCS.

    However accurate the content of what's posted here, for me the interest is in the telling and the different styles of putting views and observations across. Above all, it's the people behind the posts that matter and the relationships we manage to establish in an online context, with the bonus of getting together offline when we can.

    Patch it up fellas, please!

    John
     
  16. shagratork

    shagratork United Kingdom Moderator Subscriber

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    It seems to me that the three members have stated their positions clearly and any more 'tit-for-tat' would achieve nothing.
     
  17. snwcmpr United States

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    Ok, patching.
    I just ask that he no longer quote or misquote my posts.

    Ken
     
  18. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States Subscriber

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    @OMC is a unique wordsmith for sure. Reading his posts takes some patience and getting used to. I've stuck with it and find him to be both knowledgeable and interesting. Don't give up too easily.

    Ben
     
  19. Gunhippie United States

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    Here is a detail from the instructions for the field maintenance kit that came with my late '70s GK:

    [​IMG]

    The stove, with wrong pump:

    [​IMG]

    I bought this stove new somewhere around '78. I used it while hiking in Grand Canyon in '79 and '80.

    The right pump:

    [​IMG]

    It's easy to get these things confused when you have several.

    Some features of this stove and the exert of the instructions don't agree with the documentation you posted--particularly the part about the Bakelite base being replaced with the aluminum base in '82.
     
  20. Gunhippie United States

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    Hmm... the edit button has vanished from my reply above.

    I went back through some old pictures and memories, and I found that I bought this stove in the late winter/early spring of '80.
     

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