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Winter stove...

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by gieorgijewski, Jan 6, 2016.

  1. gieorgijewski Poland

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    or stove in -20 -> -10 Celsius...

    At last i was trying PT-1 in -12 ...
    Starting was dificult - works with less then half power...
    If adds extra heat losts for mug - effectiveness is poor.

    What constructions - and what fuel - are the best to work in these temperatures?
    What are the practical ways to reduce the effect of low temperatures on the pressure in the tank?
    [​IMG]
    Is a large tank and efficient pump with a pressure gauge is the only solution problem?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
  2. DAVE GIBSON United States

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    i had a kero burner going at 10 below F a few years ago as a test run.
    i had to give it several pre-heats and lit a bit of alcohol under the tank but once
    the roaring burned kicked it,with a wind shield around it,the stove ran like normal.
    i should note that a 71 in its case/pot holder fired upon Coleman fuel right away
    and i used that to make a cup of tea that day.
     
  3. tofta

    tofta Norway Subscriber

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    Hi @gieorgijewski

    The cold makes everything more difficult – except walking on water, frozen water that is.

    My choice of traditional stove would be an Optimus 111 or a one pinter like an Optimus 00; the Primus 210 is famous for being on top of the world. These stoves give the power one needs for melting snow and cooking. Traditional roarer burners can go however cold it is, a 111 silent likewise. Lipstick burners below freezing are fiddly, I would not go there. Small petrol burners like Svea 123 and Optimus 8 can work (best with an added pump), but plan for the limited output those have (a 123 for snow melting will test you patience). A powerful Coleman stove can do nicely, however my experience with those are limited.

    Modern stoves type Nova or Omnifuel (burning liquid fuel and mostly petrol) are the ones preferred for winter skiing expeditions amongst the people I know. I have used my Omnifuel burning paraffin below neg 30 C without problems – in fact it is brilliant. In the extreme cold the Omnifuel or a 111 would be my choice, I know they work.

    Tank pressure is not an issue for the stoves mentioned above, as long as your pump leather/o-ring/lubrication not freezes. I have had main brand lubrication freezing at about neg 15 C – not good. If you have a cold tank/fuel, light the stove and pump hard right away and the burner then heats the tank in addition, you can get higher pressure than you wanted – worth thinking about.

    There are a few cold weather ticks to get a traditional stove going, mostly related to pre heating.

    Practice before you are out there and your wellbeing is dependent on getting the stove going.

    Do not touch the cold metal without glows, dedicated leather stove gloves are recommended.

    Do not place the stove directly on snow/ice, rather on something insulating – mind any fire hazard.

    A good windshield gets even more important in the cold.

    Keep the pre heating alcohol warm, typically close to your body. When you go down past neg 10 C and closer to neg 20, lighting alcohol in the spirit cup becomes an issue. Adding a pad/wick in the spirit cup can help. I am not a fan of pre heating with petrol, but when cold enough it is better than alcohol.

    Pre heat the spirit cup slightly with a couple of matches, know what you do, the point is not to make an alcohol vapour cloud to light.

    Most lighters gets problems if it is cold enough, know how yours work. If testing in the deep freezer take precautions as some cheap crap have water in the fuel (yes – personal experience). Modern quality storm lighters (blowtorch type) are not bad, but can have issues, again - wear them close to your body.

    Old school Zippo style lighters or matches (quality ones and not too small) works. Know how the matches work, those breakaway ones are useless.

    Make sure there are paraffin in the burner before you start pre heating. No issue on a fuelled and tested 111. With a one pinter this is messy and again, practice and prepare in beforehand. The idea is to make sure you pre heat not only the metal but also a bit of fuel. Sub-zero fuel going into a borderline heated burner spells yellow fireball. When firing start slowly and give the stove time to heat itself, before opening the throttle.

    Some are very liberal about the amount of pre heating alcohol going down in their 111s; that would be the dedicated winter stove. Wrapping something liquid holding around the 111 feed pipe is a neat trick, gives extended pre heating. Some have found alcohol gel/paste for pre heating to be good in the cold, I do not like that but could be worth testing.

    The coldest I have experienced is neg 45 - 50 C when in the army up North, the mercury was below where the scale ended. With weapons and other equipment failing, the 111 roarer was one of the few things running without problems – a lifesaver.

    All the best, e
     
  4. janders

    janders Norway Subscriber

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    This is the best collection of cold weather stove handling advice I have ever seen in one place!

    Great job @tofta :clap:

    I can only add two more points (in favour of the 111):

    I find that a stove that does not need assembly is much preferred in freezing conditions. Not much chance of spilling fuel, no need to touch cold metal in order to get the small parts in place, etc. Just open the case and you are ready. (Before I converted to 111 in the winter, I used a Primus 210... Never again!)

    The weight of 111 is often held against it. I'll rather carry the extra weight and have the assurance that the stove will operate, than save half a kilo and wonder if there will be anything hot when I reach my destination.

    My 2 cents...
     
  5. gieorgijewski Poland

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    Thank you for practical information.
    If we have a good winter construction - it can let us name the worst.
    For what? To them not take on winter expeditions.
    Is mixing gasoline and alcohol will not improve the liquidity of smoking in cold weather?
     
  6. Afterburner Finland

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    Last weekend I had kerosene operated lipstick burner Optimus 96 in use on -12 °C without any problems: http://classiccampstoves.com/threads/new-ice-and-new-optimus-96.31515/#post-320273 Only "issue" was to put the stove into working mode because there is so many parts to put together and dismantle after the use. Parts in a case are quite small and it's not easy/possible put stove together and dismantle with gloves or mittens on hands)

    Today I had kerosene operated Optimus 111 in use one -26 °C without any "issues". (Lighting the spirit took few matches but on winter that's normal as mentioned above...) Just open the case, pump some pressure, pre-heat and fire up for cooking. :content: You can do everything else than match lighting with (thick)mittens on hands.

    Normal Trangia is a bit not very powerful on below freezing temperatures. But if you add Trangia winter kit or small candle under the burner is works better. Personally I don't prefer alcohol burners on winter time...
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
  7. Afterburner Finland

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    I agree with that!

    On cold weather you want to get stove running without taking mitts off. Optimus 111 & Nova and MSR XGK are very easy to set-up without taking mittens off. For those only lighting the pre-heating liquid needs mittens to be taken off. Even Primus Omnifuel is a bit troublesome because you need to turn pump's connector to get it connected to the fuel line. That is a bit difficult to do with mittens on hands.
     
  8. gieorgijewski Poland

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    Ok.
    Colds makes diferents in use...

    Temperature is rising up. Now is only -7
    When will be colder ill check szmell 1,2,4 and szaaz
    and heizkocher
     
  9. Afterburner Finland

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    I think that Heinze kocher can be rated as 111. Only pre-heater torch takes more pressure to pump than just spirit powered pre-heating. Also that is one more leak source. I have been thinking to add spirit cup into Heinze kocher, but that project waits suitable for "free time slot"...
     
  10. gieorgijewski Poland

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  11. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner United Kingdom Admin Subscriber

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    I've found mine a little flakey & winds sensitive. I prefer to prime using alcohol. I just use the depression in the tank for burning the alcohol (assuming we are talking about this model).

    I prefer roarers for full-on winter. If I had to chose a traditional stove it would be a roarer Primus 41.
    [​IMG]
     
  12. orsoorso

    orsoorso Italy Subscriber

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    Winterized 8R (and its Russian clone)
    Wood stove door "rope" ring in the spirit cup.
    Tho inches of the same rope tied with brass or SS thin wire at the open end of an "U" folded hanger wire (SS wire if you like) . I call it "the torch".
    Procedure: open the tank lid, plunge the torch in the tank, take it out slowly and put its end , holding almost vertically, on the rope ring in the spirit cup. repeat 3 or four times; this saturate with gasoline the rope ring.
    Put on the tank lid, light the torch, with it light the rope ring and put the torch burning under the tank.
    Never missed a lighting, tested at -15 centigrade.
    For subzero, I do prefer the old not simmering M1942MOD, with a rope ring in the spirit cup. Preheating and running only with car gasoline (Coleman fuel almost impossible to find in Italy, old plane white gasoline sold as spot cleaner is now sold mixed with dichloropropane, it will destroy a burner in half an hour, but if used indoor it doesn't matter too much, as you are already deadly poisoned by chlorine fumes).
     
  13. gieorgijewski Poland

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    Preheating is not main problem - if You know - You can be prepared to it.
    In 8r russians clone thermal coupling is too weak for normal operation.
    Power falls during operation. Tank needs extra heat or insulation in "normal work" mode.
     
  14. afoton

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    Most is allready written (by tofta).

    I prefer Optimus 111 for the same reason as janders. I use only the roarer, because I have to many bad experiences with different silent burners. I use kerosen on my 111, and I have replaced the tank lid with one from a 00, so I can adjust the pressure like any other classic kerosen stove. That is how I do it. The weight of the 111 is no issue when using pulk. Having a stove that I know that works with very little effort is a good thing when I am cold, tired and hungry, and I need the heat more than any thing else.

    I used a Nova for about 10 years, and that stove never let me down, and even if it is a easy stove to use in the cold, a assembled stove like 111 (or Primus 41, Radius 43 etc) is even less hassle.
     
  15. Kristian123

    Kristian123 Norway Subscriber

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    I usually go for the 111T because I usually use it for heat in the tent. For preheating wick, I use thick fiber glass thread. Under the stove, I use 4mm or thicker plywood, or a bit thicker cork plate.

    For preheating I go for methylated spirit, can't stand getting the burner and everything else all sooty because of the gasoline.
    Fuel is Kerosene, safer and cost about half as much as coleman fuel/gasoline where I live.

    This winter I am testing out the Nova and Omnifuel, both with Berniedawg silent burners. Can anybody tell me how the washers on these holds in -30 or lower?


    @gierorgijewski
    I have not much experience about the stoves you mention, but I own a Shmel 4 that I have only tested. If Szmell is the same brand, I would probably go for the Szmell 1 which is a clone of the Phoebus 625. At least for camping I would probably prefer a 625 clone due to the weight. Not sure if the Shmel 1 can burn kerosene like the Phoebus, but I guess it does?
    The Kraftstoff-Heizkocher looks super cool tho. :)
     
  16. gieorgijewski Poland

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    Shmell is Szmell
    car fuel cost circa 1.2 euro
    kerosene 4 !!!(lamp oil - not diesel)
    ---------
    Kraftstoff-Heizkocher will be tested today with "normal" air valve
     
  17. Kristian123

    Kristian123 Norway Subscriber

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    I tested the Shmel 4, and it works with kerosene, even tho it works, it has not the most pure combustion. There is some yellow flames like in an old and much used Optimus silent burner somtimes has. I don't think the Shmel has a long enough vaporizing chamber to heat the kerosene enough.

    The Shmel 4 looks like it has a wery high btu at full throttle. This I guess because of the more than usual large blue flame. Have not done any boiling test yet.

    @gieorgijewski
    You probably already know this, but regular car fuel is often not the best choice for a stove because of some added ingredients mixed in with the fuel. I think the car fuel will both plug the stove's burner and makes toxic fumes when combusted. It is way better to use purified gasoline for 4-stroke engines or Coleman fuel.
     
  18. Bratok_xxl Russian Federation

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    Wow =) My RecoShmel on foto =) This is modified stove with tuned up burner with some secrets =) Its works fine in any temperature - tested with -30 on Celsium
     
  19. gieorgijewski Poland

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    I know it.
    How it works in hot times - summer?
     
  20. Bratok_xxl Russian Federation

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    It a multifuel version - works fine in any conditions... With extra windshield - missed on foto
     

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