Less than ten known

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by OptimusPrime, Feb 25, 2019.

  1. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    I'd just go for it if it's interesting enough to members and let the mostly imaginary chips fall where they may.
     
  2. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    I say, if we do it, in the subscriber section.
     
  3. ArchMc

    ArchMc SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Precisely.

    Most of the information that would go into a "less than 10 known" thread is already available on CCS. It's currently limited to people who care enough about campstoves to search for it. I'd like to keep it that way.

    ....Arch
     
  4. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Thank you sir.
     
  5. OptimusPrime Canada

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    Well I have read enough negative that I for one will not try and continue the idea.....but on a slightly different bent...I can see that a "rare" list could potentially inflate the costs of some stoves and I get that...but..if the list was found and added too by others who find it, could it not potentially have the opposite outcome. IE: more stoves are "found" that were thought to be rare/desireable/whathaveyou, which in turn would add to the numbers known...and reduce the cost as they now seem more run of the mill....
     
  6. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    .... sort of like if a 'lost' shipment of Optimus 9 stoves were found.
     
  7. OptimusPrime Canada

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    there was that box of Bordes that was found in the basement of the sporting goods store...
     
  8. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    Ultimately CCS is a place of information about classic camping stoves first, and other similar classics that perhaps have more domestic application. This information is presented here in an immense variety of potentially interesting ways.

    So the proposal should be evaluated on that basis. Its potential impact on auction prices (mostly speculative anyway) is totally ancillary to the purposes of the site. Any information about stoves at all potentially impacts what some people might want to pay for them, or sell them for.

    And in any event, there would be no reason at all why any poster could not start such a thread. It would certainly not violate any rule of the site.
     
  9. OptimusPrime Canada

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    Im not so much worried about breaking rules per se. It is far more about what the collective thinks/feels. I just had a peek at "the" auction site and noted this. When I first got serious about collecting stoves (8 or so years ago ) there were 8-10 pages of stoves available on any given day...and new additions were 3/4 of a page on their own. Now...3 pages total if I search vintage camp stove. The natural law of supply and demand will impose itself on our hobby/interest without us drawing attention to it. I do on one hand think that the more "mania" that surrounds the collection and restoration will ultimately unearth more examples and perhaps even keep some from the horrors of the trash pile. But to that end...it potentially could take away from the (for lack of better word) purity of collection and documentation for the pure love of doing so. I do like the fact that so many of these stoves are in the hands of collectors that value them for something other than what kind of return they can garner from it..


    PS...perhaps a thread called "show us your sweeties" where particular stoves that the owner thinks is of note might be a better idea. They might not be rare/desirable per se...but perhaps more of a fine example of said model.....or not.
     
  10. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    I haven't bought a stove for about 14 years or so, except a Manaslu 96 two or three years back. I own about 55 stoves. I don't intend to sell any of them. In my case, I have a big enough family that in the long run they'll likely end up in the hands of kids and grandkids and not in the junk pile, so that I don't worry about. Secondly, none of these things have the monetary value to me that would lead me to the trouble of listing them and setting up a money-receiving and mailing operation!

    But as one who is no longer a buyer, but an owner who could sell, I suppose my interest is in price increases. (It's not actually, for the same reason that I'd just as soon see the value of my house decrease-- because those of my descendants who do not have houses yet would find it easier if West Coast house prices fell).

    But it reminds me of similar discussions we had in early days at CCS: some stovies are actively buying and hope for low prices; others are selling and hoping for high prices. So the interests on this point are divided amongst the cognoscenti.
     
  11. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Greetings, All,

    As for any stove models with less than ten known to exist, I agree that, for those members who are spending the time here reading and researching, that information can be found right here at CCS, already. At first look, I liked the idea of a "less than ten known" thread. But, after reading the thoughts and comments of fellow Stovies whom I admire, respect, and trust, I wonder about whether such an idea might be counterproductive in the extreme?!

    As @cottage hill bill, mentioned, I am the "greedy bastard", that does own two of a very rare stove. :lol::lol: (VERY funny comment, my friend!!). But, in truth, I also own one specific stove, and it's accouterment, of which mine is the only one ever found, or seen!! Our CCS Old Timers will know what stove this is, as I've mentioned it quite a bit in the past, and still use it, today. Does said stove have a price? I'm sure that some folks might think so. But, for me, I have a deep affection for this particular stove, and it has a history that makes is more special than the monetary item that others might consider it to be. The place where it was found, and the place where it was made (to which I've been!), and also the years of research on my part to finally date this item, have brought it into a very special realm for me, and it's "dollar value" is inconsequential. Others may not understand this viewpoint, but it's not up to them to decide, as I am the current caretaker of said items.

    In any case, I totally agree that having a thread that lists the "less than ten known", is not a good idea, for a variety of reasons. Let us avoid the temptation to further any more market manipulation than that which already happens through our posts here at CCS. And, by the way, I was against the "valuations" thread, and also the "Auction Watch" thread, when both were first mentioned. They serve very little purpose other than to cause market fluctuations that inflate prices to sometimes ridiculous levels, needlessly!! 'Nuff said. My 'tuppence, and worth what you paid to read them. Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc (The Greedy Bastard!) ;) :content:
     
  12. geeves

    geeves New Zealand Subscriber

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    Imagine a stove that is this rare. Im going to name it purely for this post. A Triangia 8r. 8 of these are known by a select few to exist. To anyone outside of the select few this stove would appear to be a collection of parts that in themselves are not that special. If someone in the know was to market this stove then a couple of things might happen. First if they could document the stove as genuine the price would be out of this world but also people would look at those pictures and think " I have a triangia and an 8r I wonder if they would notice" Suddenly the world is awash with Triangia 8r lookalikes and the value of the real one is damaged beyond repair. Second if that original seller couldnt document it then they would get ridiculed about it being a box of bits and it would never be able to be sold. Either way I still think knowing about the super rare stoves and there location is a good idea. It prevents fakes being sold and in the most part these stoves are not likely to be in the hands of people that want to sell them.
    We know Doc Mark has a couple of specials. We know OMC has as well. How many other truly rare stoves are out there?
     
  13. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    The story above has actually happened.
    There was a stove posted here that ended up on the auction site. It was believed at first, when posted here, to be a scam. Then later it was determined to be quite possibly a prototype of the original model. It was never conclusive. But it did sell for more than it would have if it had not come here first.
     
  14. Kero-Scene

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    I share Tony and Ian’s reservations. The current approach of listing by country/manufacturer works well.

    The 111 is a good example of a pretty average stove often now sells for extraordinary prices due to being constantly ‘talked up’ to the point that no newby, with their rationality intact, would buy one.

    A fun part of this hobby is that a diverse group of us is here. I think the current trends are a risk to that.
     
  15. geeves

    geeves New Zealand Subscriber

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    An apology if I have caused issues
    In my above post I mentioned that we know 2 people have ultra rare stoves. It has been pointed out to me via private message that my understanding here might be incorrect so I would like to apologize to OMC for suggesting he is known to have ultra rare stoves when no post of his expressly says this is the case. I would of edited the post except it is too late. Also please extend my apology to anyone else unhappy for any reason with my post.
     
  16. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    I do not say that these concerns are entirely unreal, but they are certainly abstract.
     
  17. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    You guys worry too much. It's just camp stoves after all.

    Ben
     
  18. Twoberth

    Twoberth United Kingdom Subscriber

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    I thing we are analysing this to death, (3 pages so far). I'm a NIKE man, just do it!

    Just start the thread. CCS members will either participate or not depending on their feelings.
    I don't think the information submitted will have any statistical significance in that there are millions of stove owners out there who don't use this site, and many CCS members who won't provide information. However, it would be nice to know what stoves are considered exceptionally rare, just for the information.

    I personally think that whatever we say on CCS won't affect prices in the market place. If I want a stove, I offer what I consider to be a fair price. If it's known to be rare I take this into account, but any information claiming to quantify the exact amount out there wouldn't affect my bid, because quite frankly I wouldn't believe it was accurate.

    Finally, I don't think the 111 is an average stove! I think its an iconic design and works brilliantly, and the reason prices can be 'high' (100 pounds, dollars, Euros) is because it's a cracker and not because of any hype.
     
  19. igh371

    igh371 SotM Winner Subscriber

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    A 'thread' is one thing, but the original idea was for an official categorisation equivalent to those found on some other specialist collectors sites. A 'less than 10' category would need to be 'endorsed' in some way by CCS as a site, and be comprehensive. And that would require an immense amount of work by somebody …

    On the other hand, if it was to be done properly, some of the fears regarding effects on the market might not materialise quite so drastically as feared as the genuinely desirable would be hidden, swamped by the massive numbers of uncommon but otherwise nothing special other entries ...
     
  20. Garth

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    The 111 and for that matter the 8R and 22 do fetch good money but I believe it's because no equivalent has been made since They just work, are reliable and the fold up case protects them. I've got one of each, 2 of the two burner example and they are my go-to stoves though I may be biassed as I prefer kero stoves or meths ones which seem safer to use though America far prefers petrol stoves.