California bans Denatured Alcohol, and......!!

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by Doc Mark, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. itchy

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    @Marc

    Thanks for finding, presenting and interpreting that.

    To be consistent in the war on VOCs, if you are going to ban alcohol for cleaning purposes you need to ban rubbing alcohol and hand sanitizers as well. I hope there will be exceptions carved out once hospital-acquired infections start to rise.
     
  2. Marc

    Marc Subscriber

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    Don't attribute too much to me, all I found was suggestive, not conclusive.
     
  3. itchy

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    But it does address part of the intent question with something other than conjecture. I suspect it will not ending the discussion.
     
  4. Marc

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    @itchy I suspect not as well. :mrgreen:
     
  5. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    I think REI has it figured out. Here is a major retailer, as @Doc Mark has found, selling denatured alcohol fuel, with no plans to stop. They are a big outfit in California, as elsewhere.

    I was at REI here today to buy some shoes on sale. I looked at the Crown Alcohol Stove Fuel. It doesn't say 'denatured alcohol' anywhere I could see, and it lists only use as a fuel in the instructions.

    In short, it is not a solvent, it is a fuel, and the CARB regulations are seemingly concerned with solvents. Who cares if it's just labeling?

    KleenStrip DA cans around here say Denatured Alcohol, followed by "Fuel". My suggestion is they drop the DA name, keep the fuel, and tell their retailers to move it over by the kerosene.

    Problem solved!
     
  6. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    I made some assumptions.
    I purchase products, if I can, with less chemicals. A lifestyle choice I have made. After machining so many years I avoid them, if I can. I also tried to stay off of the generic bash California bandwagon. Sometimes a California law is actually a good thing. (Hence the clock reference of twice a day) The rest of the country, or even the world laughs at the 'California Laws'. It would seem that everything in the state of California has been found to cause cancer. (Back to the word Ed used).
    If I do not trust our politicians to make sound judgements, do I then trust our manufacturers to care about my well being? Do I trust the data provided to those politicians?
    I believe things. I do not need the facts to muddy that. Not joking, just stating that facts provided by the manufacturers, EPA, or others do not necessarily mean that something is safe short or long term.

    Obviously I am not very good at this venue. I have tried to join in and express my view. Maybe I should not. My view is more along the lines of a health nut, or environmentalist, tree hugger. But, that is not where I stand politically. I am not in a box. I contradict that assumption. My other views fall all kinds of ways.

    I will buy green alcohol. My pennies will make no difference in the market. But, it is like a vote. Only one vote.
     
  7. Marc

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    @Ed Winskill

    Symptom bandaided.

    A work-around found, the larger problem unaddressed.
     
  8. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    No problem with any of that here, Ken. However, I think that there is an underlying assumption you may be making that it is the denaturing toxin (mostly methanol) added to the ethanol that is the reason for the ban. At least that's my inference.

    But I don't think that's established. My own deduction, though it could be wrong certainly, is that it is banned simply because it is a VOC used as a solvent, which would include the ethanol just as much as the methanol. But the terminology can only relate to denatured alcohol, because that is the main alcohol product used as a solvent.
     
  9. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    But the problem is the unavailability of DA in California for use as a stove fuel. Or, as one might put it, that's the CCS problem.

    One problem at a time!
     
  10. Marc

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    @snwcmpr No worries, my man. Which chemicals you use and who you trust about it is entirely your choice, and I'll be the last one to criticize you for making those choices.

    @Ed Winskill Righto, stovie problem solved.
     
  11. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Ed, Marc, thank you. You are right. That is my assumption. I really am confused, but am informed more from you all. :thumbup: Thank you for the tolerance.

    I have stopped shopping at REI, this year, because of their choices of support based on political assumptions. I will no longer support them. They are not the co-op that I joined in the 80s. (The other thread???)

    Humor Alert:
    I found an article about the VOCs of human breath. Maybe breathing will be banned soon.

    I can see that ethanol could occur in nature, a fallen fruit in the right conditions would ferment and result in ethanol. Banning a naturally occurring product? It is already taxed to extremes.
    Does methanol occur naturally, or is it only man made?
    How Methanol is Made | Methanex Corporation
    Even though it seems to share a lot of letters, it is not very close to ethanol.

    Is it safe to assume that the VOCs of methanol are not the same as the VOCs of ethanol?

    What I do not get with this solvent logic with California ... why is acetone and other chemicals not included? I mean go big or stay at home. Carburetor cleaner is another. Any stop at an auto parts store should be an awakening to VOCs. And of course, now we wonder about gasoline.

    SOLAR POWER as a so-called green energy
    How do these bureaucrats, and eco-friendly ignorant folks, think that the solar panels are made. By magic? Made without the use of lubricants and solvents? Wind turbines also.
    I use synthetic oil in my vehicles. I do not want to know how that is made. :)

    Ken
     
  12. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    All good questions. Methanol does naturally occur, including in the human body.

    Also, ethanol is now made synthetically in industrial quantities as well; what comes out is still ethanol, though the process may be much less desirable than natural fermentation.

    Methanol - Wikipedia

    Your point about other solvents is right on; when I look at the solvent shelf at the hardware store, denatured alcohol looks like the most benign one!

    In addition, the distinction between fuel use and solvent use I think can be very important. Inhalation of a solvent is inhalation of the substance itself, in vapor form.

    But combustion in free air, i.e. well-oxygenated, of alcohols, including methanol, would produce mostly water and CO2. Remember, we happily burn petrol and kerosene in our stoves, and I suspect that even with good combustion thereof, most alcohols burn cleaner. Certainly at least as clean.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  13. Marc

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    My previous quote from the CARB website documents specifically listed acetone. They're even going after any solvent marked for general use, or without a specific use marked on the packaging.

    I'd like to see the data showing whether or not the VOC's being released are actually at an environmentally dangerous level, enough that banning them was necessary. I strongly suspect it's not. Anyone have that data handy?

    Government is like a slimy used car salesman. If the numbers worked, if the supporting data was there, the numbers would be front page front and center. When the used car dealer doesn't want to show you the numbers, it's because the numbers don't work and the data isn't there.

    The chrome's shiny and the engine's powerful, the legislation feels like the right thing to do, you don't REALLY need to see the numbers, do you?
     
  14. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    Northern California and southern Oregon should secede and form the State of Jefferson. @Marc for governor!!! Denatured alcohol for all and legislation based on supporting data. What a concept.

    1280px-Jefferson_state_flag.svg.jpg

    Ben
     
  15. IvanN

    IvanN United States Subscriber

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    @snwcmpr , Ken, I appreciate your views about finding the best choice we can in the things we use, fuel included. If we all make our choices in that way, we have done what we can, and it does add up. Thank You.
     
  16. geeves

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    Isnt the great outdoors Our grand laboratory? We have an exemption
    Also where does it leave e85 gasoline?
    banning volatile organic chemicals being used as solvents is going to have interesting results. Even water based household paints contain some solvent. The only alternative is ammonia although that is technically a organic solvent in that it can only be formed from organic chemicals even if it has no carbon. Printing inks are always solvent based. Everything else drys too slowly. How will home mechanics clean engine parts? A workshop might have a hot tank containing caustic soda but Jimmy down the road wont. He will just line the parts up in the gutter smother them in dishwash liquid then hose them off
     
  17. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    Water is the universal solvent. Why worry about solvents? The answer: don't.

    We couldn't dissolve things without solvents. Organic? Carbon...it's everywhere.
     
  18. Twoberth

    Twoberth United Kingdom Subscriber

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    So how is a California gal supposed to remove her nail varnish?
     
  19. ArchMc

    ArchMc SotM Winner Subscriber

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    From the excerpts @Marc posted, it looks like it really is all about labeling.

    Selling a VOC as a generic chemical has been banned, but if you label it for a specific purpose, it's ok to sell (except for paint removal products and surface preparation products, which are expressly banned). So it's illegal to sell "denatured alcohol", but fine to sell "stove fuel" (that happens to be denatured alcohol).

    In a way, I guess I should be happy that it was painters who are discriminated against, rather than backpackers and boaters. Except it still doesn't mean alcohol stove fuel will be easily available in remote towns near long distance trails. The point is that hardware stores carried denatured alcohol precisely because it's a generic product that has many uses. So maybe it's now ok to sell "rubber cement solvent" that happens to be pure carbon tetrachloride? Maybe we can relabel nuclear waste as "roach killer". <irony/sarcasm alert>

    Sorry, I suddenly feel very naive -- it hadn't occurred to me that they're playing us all for idiots. In a few years, some bright spark can write a handy hints guide that includes, "Did you know you can use bio-ethanol stove fuel to clean up pesky paint spills?"

    Ken @snwcmpr I respect what you're saying, and I agree fully that we should try to make stove fuels (and everything else we can) less hazardous, but this looks more like a shell game.

    ....Arch
     
  20. Kero-Scene

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    Sorry if this has been covered (it’s a long thread!), I’ve been reading in another forum and it seems to be when DA is labelled as a solvent it is assumed to be a cleaning product and then the manufacturer needs to reduce the amount of VOCs to less than 50 percent. If it is not a cleaning product then the limit doesn’t seem to apply, hence fuel can be 100 percent VOCs.

    Also, the concern seems to be any VOC that can undergo photochemical reactions in the atmosphere.

    I hope I understood it all so as to convey it correctly here!