Are we confusing a 111D with a different 111C?

Looking thru the SRG, I'm seeing the "C" and the unofficially named "D" are just different examples of a "C", having different burners of course. The latest example was recently entered in the SRG. My unfired "C" doesn't have the burner like the recent addition to the SRG, but my "D" does. Am I on the right track?
Sorry, I have a tablet and can't post links.
Duane

 

Hi Duane,
I think there is a lot of confusion about "D" and "Arctic" versions of 111. From Optimus, these denominations never existed. They seem usually to refer to Norwegian military replacement burner 221CNA and stoves that have been assembled or been repaired by the Norwegian Army using various generation replacement components. Stoves and parts in different configurations have then come out on surplus markets etc.

I have posted on this topic previously here: Optimus Arctic 111C

 

I read that earlier this morning.
Also, I think the circular fuel line not only helps with preheating the burner, but keeps the tank from too much thermal feedback with running the stove longer in extreme cold.
Duane

 

Thank you Duane I will follow with interest.
Reminder we're so fortunate to have details offered direct from the source.
Credit and thanks to @Staffan Rönn from above link:
> on point: "...the fuel feed tube going in a semi-loop around the burner body. This was to allow the burner to be interchangeable with older generation burners" . "...backwards compatibility was the reason for the design."
^^^^ the complete comment in context is below.

Duane you are correct, there has been some confusion and inconsistency. We can say this only with hindsight of course. Not knowing then what we know now.
Example: On CCS we adopted/made-up the term discus stoves, discus tank: Optimus 100, 45, 48. Primus 51, 54, Svea 105, 106 to name the main ones. Although made-up, at this point it does define a specific type of tank/stove.

Similarly it seems 111D is a CCS made up term? Several members going with this, and described here .

111D? [but why, or ok... why not : ) ]
Of course 111NA, the NA may be problematic but some reference / indicator of Norwegian Army seems appropriate.
It is not a 111C.
If we do "get it straight" on CCS, there is a specific 111 stove: retrofitted and plentiful in Norwegian Army and not a model ever offered by Optimus: a complete 111_ fitted with 221CNA burner (a burner issued only to Norwegian Army).
It DOES beg question, what does Norwegian Army call their retrofitted/modified 111s?
[FWIW US Army refers to a modified M1942 as a M1942-MOD ]
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Artic: Norwegian Army DOES need Artic/cold performance. I could join those attaching "Artic" EXCEPT, we see from multiple sources Norwegian Army surplus and Optimus, the reason for the 221CNA was not cold performance related.
Not for nothing "how" 221CNA vs Cobra perform in the cold I do not know.
"One" known factor in-general is: increasing the mass of brass used on the burner (extending fuel tube) = more heat needed during prime (a cold stove... has more cold brass to heat) <-- in general.
Of course having this extended tube "in" the prime flame may offset that completely, in this case.
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Complete comment in-context: There were never complete stoves manufactured with this burner. The burner, officially denominated 221CNA by Optimus, was only supplied as a spare burner for Optimus 111 stoves to the Norwegian Armed Forces. So it was used to replace either old roarer 111 burners or silent 111T burners within the armed forces, like in your unit. I have no clue where the word "Arctic" comes from.
The burner is basically a 111C burner but turned 180 degrees by the fuel feed tube going in a semi-loop around the burner body. This was to allow the burner to be interchangeable with older generation burners since they all had the spindle control come out on the right hand side. The official name 221CNA deciphers as follows:
221 = the article no of the silent burner for 111T which was the previous generation.
C = Cobra, the internal nick-name for this generation burners with hot-stamped (don't know if the term is correct in English) burner bodies.
NA = Norwegian Army
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Hi @Brenneman , yes backwards compatibility was the reason for the design,

 

@OMC, I think this is the same as there being no official version of a 111/7, my NIB 111C has a clip similar but not exact like the spring steel clip the 111/7 seems to only have. I have not read much regarding the "7".
Duane

 

Parts packet. Unopened with restrictor?
Duane

 

Did a search for Optimus 111/7 and seems it dates back to '59. The "T" coming out with bits so it could be used for triple fuels.
Duane

 

Thank you Duane, I do not know exactly how to ID a 111/7 although as I recall I've convinced myself "I think" I have one.
re "...there being no official version of a 111/7"
EXCEPT 111/7 is a model that was offered. I knew this but quick search found the answer credit Ross (but that was broken link to "59 brochure" he mentioned), and so it is...
credit & thanks again to Staffan (it does not get old btw : ), it's great!
111/7 on the 58 price list he posted, it is a model as far as I know.

Back to OP though, you are right, there has been confusion. It is not a 111C and some do refer to retrofitted Norwegian Army 111 as, among other names, a 111D (not sure why 111D?). … but "it's a thing", there is some consistency and clear definition / explanation of the same (whatdoyacallit Norwegian Army 111s) and i gotta run.

 

Maybe as mentioned I believe in one thread in the SRG, 111C and a 111C Arctic. ?
Duane

 

There were never any stoves produced with the 221CNA burner. This burner was only supplied as a spare part for all generations of the 111 (except for 111C). Possibly the confusion comes from an anticipation that Optimus made a special Arctic or D version of the 111?

On the topic of performance, the 221CNA version was better than the 9001 burner of the 111C. As @OMC suggests, the semi-looped fuel feed tube improved the preheating performance also resulting in better combustion. The normal "C" type of burners had too much brass material to perform as good as earlier designs.

 

In Norwegian military the 221CNA has no spesific name, its just a sparepart used among other 111.
(111, 111T and this one With 221CNA burner was all called 111 by the military)

 

111D.

D - Distorted, Disfigured, Deformed?

How about a vote?

 

D = (Norwegian) Defence

 

I'm clearly off my game @Afterburner, no vote required.

Fits very neatly with the origins if I've read the provenance of the version correctly.

Albeit it doesn't quite reflect the origins are Ex Defence rather than supplied to the Forces I suppose.

 

This burner is just a modiefied C. And D is just what comes after C.

 

afaton,
Fair for me to mention what we're calling 111D is the opposite of a 111C, it is not a 111C.
It is not a modified 111C. 111C can not be modified to this 111D.
"I think" any reference to 111C is a source for continued confusion. I am just 1 guy but, as per OP, there has been confusion.
An Optimus 221CNA (retrofit) burner, issued only to Norwegian Army, on an earlier 111 makes it this 111D, as explained above and elsewhere.

For giggles, does someone want to ask Fogas, do they call it 111D? if so, why?
---------------------------

Thanks again to Duane for OP.
Easy search finds early "CCS" 111D reference 2008 April. A Magnus "Visit at Fogas" thread, flows like this:
….a flood of photos,
… LATER added/edited> "... I've now writed a short line of almost every photo." <-- So, Magnus was asked for "commentary" for photo(s), he offered: "Optimus No 111D (for diesel E85?) ". No further comment re 111D.
==================

Under Norway The Defence >
> Norway army surplus = Norges hæroverskudd
(source of 111Ds: Norway Army surplus 111s w/221CNA burners)

Re Afterburner's: 111D, "D = (Norwegian) Defence", good.
It is a stretch but D can have Norges hær surplus connection.
111D Norge Forsvaret = Norway The Defence (wiki & google help)
111D Norge "Forsvaret" Overskudd = Norway "The Defense" Surplus
111D Forsvarsoverskuddet = Norway The Defence surplus

Duane, consider also?:
111D Norge Defence Surplus (Forsvarsoverskuddet). credit AB

 

I'm not sure but I think the name 111D originated on this forum. But I might be wrong here. When I started collecting kerosene stove I was told a 111 with burner 221CNA was a Cobra Arctic.
As afoton says a burner sitting inside a " 111D" is just a modified no 9001 (Optimus part no).All 111C (with no9001 burner) has its named stamped on the outside of the cardboard box.
All 111C can be modified to "111D" if you fit them with a 221CNA burner. Believe or not.
It is just as simple as that.

Bjørn

 

The C is named after the Cobra burner. The Cobra burner has the regulator on the left side, opposite of what all the older 111s had.
Optimus made a modified Cobra burner for the Norwegian army to use in older 111-cases. To do this, the Cobra burner is turned 180° so the regulator was on the right side. The fuel feed line was now turning bacwards, so it is fitted with a longer feed line in a half circle around the burner. This is what I call a modified C-burner. In this forum, or somewhere else, this burner has been called D, because D is next to C.

 

That "Norwegian Defense" was a bit joke but from that connection it is easy to remember that 'D-model' is that 111 which was modified & used by Norwegian military.

That 'C' designation is also interesting question... Does Optimus refer the burner that they use in 111C somewhere(brochures, manuals, etc.) to be 'Cobra burner'?

 

Yes.
Optimus International - Products - 111C Hiker