On this site and others I have read various comments and commentary about the negative effect on burners and lanterns, etc, from polishing with brasso. Does anyone have any definitive evidence that they can produce, or point me to a site with same, that actually says why this is the case? Scientific preferably. I have seen and read probably just as much argument that refutes the negative ones, but I thought I'd ask nonetheless. Yes, I do polish with Brasso; anything from the last two 5" naval cartridge cases that I watched being fired (but that's another story) which are a lot harder than the burner brass, right down to the 00 optimus. I guess some of you are squirming right now, but I'm operating under the mantle of ignorant bliss until I'm convinced otherwise. Note that an earlier thread talked about the Brasso we get here (New Zealand) being different i.e. better than some that's sold under that name in the US, but before anyone asks, I haven't used both so I'm professing no expertise to confirm which is better, nor what ingredients they're made from. Rob
Fingers get dirty Hands get sore have to re polish to keep up the standard. You remove metal by polishing and therefore the engraving will eventually be worn away if over done.in time. Worst I think is mechanicl polish wheels.I aint got one though. I use auto sol I think it gives a softer finish with out as many abrasives. But then again I aint a annal retentive stove polisher either. But I do like em shiney!!! the real collectors be along soon.To put us right!!! Barra
Brasso Deadly? Only if you've been drinking too much of it. Every once in a while one hears some idiotic rumors about some everyday product being responsible for everything from causing roadways buckling to massive puddy tat die-offs. I usually advise a cool glass of water followed by a short nap. I suppose theoretically if you polished an item twice a day with Brasso for 50 or 75 years it might show some wear. Reality usually is a bit different. On the other hand, I dislike the smell of Brasso so I use a product called "NevR Dull." It's also sold as Wilton Armetale Metal Polish. The only ingredient in it that I can identify is kerosene. the stuff is dirt cheap and it works. Gerry
Thug, Could not agree with you more. Brasso seems to do the trick in removing all that patina with no ill effects. To retain the shine aren't you suppose to cover the brass in a lacquer or varnish to seal out the air? Chuck
When I store my burners, after getting them to a working state, I put a light coating of Vaseline over any metal that oxidises. It's not a good look, but a quick wipe when one wants to show them, and they're not too bad. It doesn't protect like laquer but then I find laquer will crack in use. The oxidation rate slows to less than half I reckon (with absolutely no scientific basis!). Rob
The Navy standard! I'm afraid I've got thousands of hours, pushing a wad of that stuff around ! We saved 'Brasso' for the Special stuff, belt buckles and such. It seemed to work better...
Steve you old salt dog when i was in we used toothpaste on our hats and belts.Makes them nice and white
Hi, Brasso and its effect on brass is widely discussed on the Web, most notably by shooters who load their own ammo. 1. Brasso contains ammonia. It therefore has the potential to cause cracking is those brass tank stoves which are susceptible to Stress corrosion cracking. 2. I have posted on the forum before about the potential problem; http://www.network54.com/Forum/81021/message/1053538066/Season+Cracking+in+Brass, 3. If you do have a tank with residual stresses it could crack with Brasso, but also with household cleaners, urine, sweat, and numerous other fluids. 4. You makes your choice and lives with the results. There are no Guarantees in Life except death and taxes. 5. I personally use brasso and similar cleaning products on my brass tank stoves. 6. I sometimes find failed tanks but I don't blame the Brasso. Here endeth the lesson. Best Regards, Kerophile.
OK, I'm not now as ignorant as I was and I thank you kind gentlemen for lifting the veil somewhat. However there are, as any of you that have had children know, the five whys - Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? I think I have four left. So, why (or more accurately, how) does ammonia, urine, sweat, etc. cause cracking in susceptable brass? Rob
Hello, Okay, three more whys left I think I read here once before that the artilary wagons from the first world war were pulled by horses. The brass shells were know to crack and this was determined to be from the Urine that the Horses passed as they were moving the cannon and ammo. It seems as though Ammonia has a chemical reaction with brass and will cause it to weaken and crack. Does that seem to be right? I am not real sure about the chemical reaction but, that was how I remembered it being said once. Chuck
Hi, A quote from the book CORROSION by L.L. Shreir: " Failure of copper alloys may occur by cracking due to the combined influence of tensile stress and exposure to a corrosive environment. When the stresses are produced in components during manufacture the trouble is usually known as "stress cracking" and failures due to this form of stress corrosion have been known for many years. Only certain specific environments appear to produce stress corrosion of copper alloys, notably ammonia or ammonium compounds or nitrogen- bearing materials and/or related compounds such as amines. The CORROSION HANDBOOK by Uhlig................Ammonia may produce cracks that are transcrystalline or intercrystalline, or a mixture of both, according to circumstances. Alloys containing only a few percent of zinc may fail if the stresses are high and the environment sufficiently corrosive. Most types of brass, besides the plain copper/zinc alloys, appear to be suseptible to SCC.................In general, the susceptibility to SCC appears to increase with the increase in zinc content" The ammonia is not easily removed either, once the attack begins the damage is irreversible. As to "Why?. The old quotation says; "The greatest fool can ask a question which the wisest man cannot answer"..... Regards, Kerophile.
Ammonia is used as bore cleaner because it dissolves copper. If one saturates a cotton or linen patch with an ammonia based cleaner and passes it through a copper fouled bore it comes out bright blue green. Quite a pretty color actually. If the bore is left wet for a few minutes each time, ammonia is quite effective in removing the metallic copper washd onto the bore from the passage of copper jacketted bullets. I clean my rifle bores with a product called "Sweet's 7.62" or another called "Butch's Bore Shine." Both contain a large amount of ammonia and both work well. Artillery and rifle cases used in black powder times and early smokeless times up until the middle of WWII and even now in European and Asian practice were primed with compounds of mercury as they were and are very stable in storage, effective, and cheap. Unfortunately for those like me who handload, cartridge cases that were mercuric primed must be washed very soon after firing with soap and water to remove the mercuric salts remaining as those salts attack the copper in the brass making the brass very brittle and weak. The easy way to tell if fired cases were mercuric primed is to attemp to crush one with a pair of pliers. If merc. primed, the case will crack and break, if not it will simply crush, remaining intact. Unusable, but intact. So I think probably the old artillery cases were degraded more by mercuric salts from the inside than horse piss on the outside. Gerry
Hi Gerry, The artillery cases which originally cracked in India were susceptible to stress corrosion cracking by virtue of the high residual stresses locked into the metal structure. Whether it was ammoniacal vapours from horse piss, mercuric salts from the fuses, or some other fluid, which caused cracks to form and propagate is immaterial. The fact is that once a material is susceptible to SCC it is likely to be only a matter of time before cracking occurs.....there are a whole line of potential "assasins" happy to do the deed. It is interesting that both the US and British Standards have an accelerated test for detecting high residual stresses in Copper and its alloys, which uses mercurous salts as the test medium. Check here ; scc Test Best Regards, Kerophile
Hello, So would it be a good idea to use a mild soap and water rinse after polishing to remove the Ammonia residue left behind? Chuck
Hi Chuck, most metal polishes actually contain an oil which leaves a thin coating on the surface of the polished item. This layer of oil slows down the rate of subsequent re-oxidation of the metal surface. If you were to wash this oil off you will notice how fast the polished surface tarnishes. If I had used Brasso to get a high polish I would not wash the item. However, I tend to lacquer my polished stoves, so I have to remove this oil by wiping with a cloth dampened with methylated spirits and then give them a quick wash in hot water and detergent, before drying thouroughly and applying the lacquer. Regards, Kerophile
Hi all, thanks for the great replies, I am now more learned, if not personally wiser. I will stick with the two whys used, noting that the five whys game used to start at the beginning of every conversation with the kidlets ....! I will now be a bit more circumspect with the repeated use of the Brasso, although it's great for that first cut and polish. Regards all, Rob
Hello Gents, I try to restrict my Brasso use to items such as lids, pump handles, etc. I have experienced two tanks gone South with the stress cracks, and I was not happy on either one, so have tried very hard not to use the Brasso on tanks, and definately not the Noxon product marketed in the US which is a more concentrated ammonia based cleaner. I have no idea when the subject tanks became cracked. A routine inspection of the tank upon receiving the stove is a good idea I learned. For parts I still use Brasso on, I have made fixtures using old stove parts from derelict stoves, and can spin clean pump lids, tank lids, reserve lids, and other items, while holding a rag with some Brasso on it on the spinning part. This takes about 20 seconds for a tank lid for example. I also use the spin method on spriit cups that are filthy. The method is so effective I am surprised it's not illegal. My cleaning method for tanks and burners mostly, and a preclean for other parts like lids etc. is usually citric acid paste made by adding a small amount of wallpaper paste powder (so it doesn't run and I don't have to dunk the tank), or a dip in citric acid solution (burners etc.) in an ultrasonic cleaner. I chase that process with soap and water, then a baking soda in water dip (burners typically). The citric acid method, and in particular the paste method, I learned from George. I also have a 2 speed buffing machine with a 6 to 8 inch buff on each end. I usually use the low speed (600 RPM or so) with a wax based polishing media on the buffs, and can get a nice polish directly after either of the citric acid cleaning methods. I have been experimenting with a cleaner made by 3M for brass called Tarni-shield. It uses citric acid as the cleaning medium and instead of depositing an oil like Brasso, a silica coating is deposited. So far I have found the tarnish shield abilities of this product to be quite good, but I am in the extreme early stages with using it and only have a few weeks on the first stove tank that it has been applied to as "final treatment". I have recently experimented with a clear coating available here in the US called Everbrite I have only coated one stove by brush application with it and it looks good so far after 2 months. It is reputedly a "Nylonic " material. There is a similar product for marine use being marketed in Australia. A Google search for "nylonic clear coat " will find it. Regards, Doug
