California bans Denatured Alcohol, and......!!

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by Doc Mark, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr Subscriber

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    Thanks @ArchMc
    I can see it now. The lemmings. The legislature knows they will follow blindly. Nearly all people will simply follow. They would not use a stove fuel to clean their glass window. Their glass will be dirty.
    It is those that question a rule that will balk.

    That is the benefit of this thread.

    Look how many uses there are for vinegar. A nephew, a really smart guy, asked me why I had gallons of vinegar. Glass cleaner, rust remover, etc.
    Vinegar, water, newspaper to clean glass.
    Some people would say "No, you must use glass cleaner bought in a store with ingredients you cannot pronounce".
    [Side note: Some vinegar is made from crude oil]
    Rust remover ... molasses. Who would have thought.

    I like Ben's idea of making my own ethanol fuel. But, as a member of a sober organization that might be misunderstood.

    Full disclosure. I have, and use, carburetor cleaner. I use spray paint. I have been known, often, to burn, among other things, DA inside a structure.

    Ken
     
  2. itchy

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    @snwcmpr

    Ken, I totally support you and respect your choices in all matters. We should all be able to make our own choices depending on what we feel is important. I hope you realize I am mostly interested in getting the facts straight, and the underlying basis for such regulations correct, because that should allow us all to make better choices.

    I do tend, however, to be hopelessly cynical on many of these issues. Not very proud of that.
     
  3. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr Subscriber

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    I like it. Thank you for the information.
    But, facts can get in the way of my inaccurate assumptions. :D/
     
  4. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States SotM Winner Subscriber

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    That's why it's important to have alternative facts.

    Ben
     
  5. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr Subscriber

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  6. pysen78

    pysen78 Subscriber

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    Ok so I looked into this a bit more. In Sweden and a few more countries, consumer demand has spawned an organisation called "Svanen" translates to "the Swan".
    It's a certification scheme that took off in the 90s and makes it possible for consumers to choose products which are better for health and environment.
    Recently it's become that our biggest housing development companies has begun to certify their buildings with this label simply because it sells better.

    Anyways, as in california, the Swan recently targeted solvents. The data suggests its related to air quality. VOC's used in paints and caulk will release over time, and is likely to increase risk of allergies and such.

    Here's the twist. Ethanol and isopropyl is explicitly exempt from the regulated group of VOC's by the Swan.
    This to me, says they're probably not harmful, and california legislators simply painted with too broad a brush. (Or possibly inhaled too much paint thinners while doing it)
     
  7. Marc

    Marc Subscriber

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    @z1ulike Thank you sir for the nomination. I shall be a firm yet kind dictator.

    I'm going to order one of those flags for my truck.
     
  8. BradB

    BradB United States Subscriber

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    It is all too easy to bust on government, whether in California or federal. Do you trust industry more? Just remember, industry gave us Love Canal, cigarette caused lung cancer, the Cayahoga River on fire, asbestosis, the destruction of millions of acres of Pennsylvania and West Virginia from coal mining. I trust government WAY more than I trust industry, whose only interest is in showing profit the next business quarter. Do I blindly trust government? Hell no, that’s why we vote and lobby as private citizens. Brad
     
  9. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    I have various degrees of trust in both, depending on circumstances. My wife has held local elective office for 30 years, so I always reject various general rants against 'government'.

    However, I trust denatured alcohol to be what it's always been. And I see more problems like that on the horizon. To me it is pretty clear that the process of restriction on citizen activities is a one-way street of ever-greater control.
     
  10. geeves

    geeves New Zealand Subscriber

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    Would that kill roaches?
     
  11. IvanN

    IvanN United States Subscriber

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    kills roaches... your results may vary
     
  12. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr Subscriber

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    I saw roaches in Hawaii, along the Ala Wai Canal, I would step on them and they would fly away.
    I too trust government more than business. Not much though.
     
  13. Marc

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    If I was to plot "trust" on a scale, corporations would be a -1 and government would be -3 or so. A few government agencies and a few individual politicians would rank higher(Ed's wife I'm sure would, Oregon's Bill Post is good as well.)

    So yeah, I trust corporations "more", but still not on the positive side of the graph.
     
  14. ArchMc

    ArchMc Subscriber

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    I trust some businesses more than I trust much of the government, but large corporations exist to maximize their profits, at the cost of any other considerations. A major role of government is to protect us from negative consequences of what corporations will do to maximize profit.

    So I appreciate what CARB (for example) is evidently trying to do. But I agree with @pysen78 that they're painting with too broad a brush. The problem with this is that many folks are really not idiots, and games like regulating a product based on how it's labeled is what makes people lose respect for government regulation.

    ....Arch
     
  15. Simes

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    This has been an absolutely fascinating read gentlemen, thank you.

    What has become apparent is that head scratching due to government legislation isn't solely restricted to Californian residents but includes most of the rest of the world.

    One thing that has irked me the most about our, UK, fun and games regarding leaving membership of the EU has been the argument surrounding the 'interference' of Euro legislators in UK law.

    In many cases the original legislation is aimed to improve the lot of some of the relatively more remote areas of Europe, it all goes horribly wrong when some local UK beaurocrat totally misinterprets the legislation. This in turn has been jumped on gleafully by the UK press, who have a lot to answer for in this regard.

    Sanitation, fire extinguishers and weights and measures the list is endless.....
     
  16. itchy

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    A somewhat different interpretation is that they did some form of a cost-benefit analysis that resulted in the realization that, even though harmful, banning those particular substances would have "unintended consequences" that result in greater harm than the VOCs would cause.

    For example: California is looking into banning hand sanitizers and rubbing alcohol, both of which are useful disinfectants in hospitals and health care facilities -- bad idea. Banning wind-shield waster fluids (with anti freeze agents presumably) -- fine for LA maybe but not in the mountains and anywhere that gets cold. No doubt there are numerous household cleaning agents in aerosol cans that are not necessary and are harmful, the problem is that people will find alternatives and those may be worse.

    An accurate prediction of the way people change their behavior in response to new regulations is a tall order but some forethought along those line would be helpful.
     
  17. Metropolitantrout

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    I might have found a short term solution that will save fellow Californians a trip to Nevada or AZ if you can't live without this. West Marine stores still have some gallon tins of denatured alcohol in stock in various stores and in their warehouse. Last week I ordered a gallon online which was sent to my local West Marine branch free of shipping charges and today I picked it up for the regular price of $22. A gallon will last me a good while.
    The associate there told me it is basically illegal to sell but gave the impression they could still sell what they had in stock and to "order it now while you can". I was in a hurry so I didn't follow up with him on the law. If it worked for me....
     
  18. goldwinger11

    goldwinger11 United States Subscriber

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    If I understand the CARB excerpt correctly, the manufacturers cannot list the contents of the "fuel". It seems that only fuels are exempt from the ban. The containers must have the specific use labelled on them. This looks like they are trying to limit the quantity of voc's and not the quality. I also noticed that closed circuit cleaning systems are not targeted, so in effect you can use a denatured alcohol solvent in the system if the container specifically states that it's for that use only. The dumbing of people by saying that is all the product can be used for and not the contents.

    @Ed Winskill Imagine putting the denatured alcohol that doesn't list it's contents, next to the kerosene and someone trying to use it in a kerosene heater. Ouch.

    It's also cheaper for the authorities to do a blanket ban without much research and letting the public do the rest of the research to justify exemptions.
     
  19. Ed Winskill

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    I suspect that they are allowed to call it "alcohol stove fuel"; that is what the Crown brand at REI here reflects and I assume the same is true in REI in California.
    There is no such thing as "fuel" as a product without some modifier. I don't think it would be confused with kerosene any more than Coleman fuel would.
    My suggestion (partly though not entirely tongue in cheek) is that the big brand KleenStrip, which is already marked : "Denatured Alcohol-- Fuel" should be moved off of the solvent shelves in California and put with the fuels. Problem (dis)solved; a fuel, not a solvent.

    One problem is that big retailers, like bureaucracies themselves, always overthink or overcomplicate things; taking them even beyond the requirements of the statutes or the regulations. We see this in countless contexts.
     
  20. goldwinger11

    goldwinger11 United States Subscriber

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