Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by hikin_jim, Mar 21, 2011.
Thank you. Now to find a stand.
Will the F1 Ultralight work in this fashion, do you know?
And for the stove stand, I assume I would need to run the stove first in normal mode, and then when the stove has warmed up, invert the canister, yes?
I have used an Ultralight as well, slightly modified.
The plastic ring holding the pot supports is the weak point of this stove.
I will take some pics to show my setup.
For your second question:
It takes about 15-20 seconds.
Ok, here are some pics.
The slightly stripped down F1 (P1-P4)has no more plastic parts and "my" Brunton stove stand only uses the inner parts of the original one.
The legs are made from head carriers taken from an old IBM hard disk
The flame shots F1/F2 are during "preheating", F3/F4 with liquid fuel supply.
Hope that helps.
I tried a second F1 where I replaced the complete head section by a titanium version from a Kovea gassie. Works as well. The important part is the alloy housing.
I forgot one important point:
The F1, like every screw-on gassie, has a small brass pin to open the Lindal valve of a cartridge.
But unlike the rest of the industry Coleman uses a thicker pin. No problem with a cartridge.
But the Brunton/Kovea stove stand has a Lindal valve as well, with an opening smaller than on a cartridge. No problem with gassies, except Colemans.
I simply took out this valve completely (the second, regulated one at the cartridge side is sufficient) and increased the hole a bit. I think I used a 3 mm drill. You can see it on picture P4.
Yes and no… the regulator cannot govern the development of pressure in the canister as that is as you correctly state a function of: fuel type,temp and atmospheric pressure. A regulator can govern the amount of pressure and hence fuel available to the burner which is the function it’s performing in the ODR1
What you are saying is correct but you’re not understanding how the appliance with the regulator works. If you take a canister to the temp / atmospheric pressure point where all vaporisation of the gas from the liquid to vapour state has stopped then nothing will work not an OD-1R not a stove with a conventional needle valve.
However if you have some vaporisation occurring then a stove with a pressure regulator and a burner matched to the regulator has a better chance. I suspect that SOTO have designed the burner to operate on very low pressure this design will be a combination of orifice (injector size) and aeration the size of the air port as pure gas without air will not burn. What the regulator is doing is adjusting the pressure available down to this level when canister pressure increases say due to ambient temp increase or a gain in elevation.
I believe that to be an incorrect statement. If you design an appliance to work on low pressure and then regulate the supply so the pressure is consistent for your design then it will work better than an appliance with a needle valve and no ability to regulate pressure. A needle valve appliance is designed to operate well really within a narrow operating pressure band so if we reduce the pressure ( such as cold conditions and low fuel vaporisation) then the appliance will not work effectively we’ll see a low burn rate.
Likewise if we operate in an overpressure condition we’ll see an unstable over pressure flame pattern.
I think you understand chemistry and physics well. If you’re guilty of anything it’s thinking that the appliance is trying to influence the generation of pressure in the supply canister. It’s not. The regulation is there to adjust the pressure down to the burner design parameters.
A regulator will allow more consistant operation over a wider temperature range than a high pressure set tup but its still going to fail outside the lowest temperature the fuel can operate at. Once you reach -18C or so you still have no stove.
There cartridges arnt set up internally to provide liquid feed are they? ie a pipe to the bottom of the can. If they are then the stove will still be able to run standard cartridges but if it has a lindal valve interesting things are going to happen when you hook one of those cartridges up to a standard upright burner
Correct.. As I said above.. Once vapour production stops then neither a Needle valve nor a Regulated appliance will work.
I thought the premis of the 'debunking' was that a regulated SOTO OD-1R appliance is of no advantage in a low vapour pressure situation when compared to an appliance with a needle valve. I don't believe that is the case.
No canisters to approved EN417 or DOT2P do not have a liquid feed pipe in the canister.
Hence all of the canister Inversion gizmos on the market. If you want to feed Liquid LPG from an canister you need to invert it. If you're doing so into an appliance without a preheater loop caution is advised...
Thank you for your response. You're the first person who has been able to articulate any reason whatsoever why the regulator might be preferable to a needle valve.
I lack the means to make precise tests, but it would be interesting to compare some needle valved stoves of the same general class in conditions where the canisters of each stove were within 2 degrees C of the vaporization point of the fuel. In other words conditions where the gas would vaporize but very weakly. If the Soto were perceptibly better under those conditions, then perhaps they're on to something.
However, having said that, I suspect that warming the canister by placing it in a pan of water would probably be more effective than employing a regulated burner.
I am curious if the regulated burner would be good enough to make any material difference in conditions of low pressure.
To say the least.
Thank you for all the photos. I've never actually seen an F1 except for in photos. I'm not quite able to visualize all that you've done.
I'm going to find an F1 at a reasonable price. If I can, I'll be able to see what an F1 looks like before your modifications. Once I see a "before" F1, I think I will understand your "after" F1 better.
No problem.. The thing about the web and forums in general is folk are quick to jump on 'bandwagons'. Scientific fact is one thing application of that to design and engineering and the understanding that is somehthing else
HJ it will work better than a needle valved appliance in the conditions you discribe.
There is a lot of info out there on the SOTO OD-1R I think the last time we discussed it on here we referred to a Youtube video which shows the OD-1R and a Snowpeak appliance attached to a common manifold. This is the better video if you have an idea on how gas appliances work.
In the video both appliances are shown running with the control valves fully open the common manifold allows the LPG supply pressure to the appliance to be varied you can see the effect of low pressure on the Needle valve equipped Snowpeak compared to the OD-1R.
As the needle valve appliance is designed to operate in quite a narrow band of vapour pressure it's no surprise that performance drops off at low vapour pressure. You could design a needle valve appliance that would work well at low vapour pressure but it would be dangerous and 'normal' vapour pressures. That's the real benifit of a regulated appliance it works consistantly at a wide range of vapour pressures.
Lets now enter the real world I'd take an OD-1R into snow or conditions where I probably would not take a regular appliance but if I was going somewhere really cold where I could not expect any vapour pressure to develop in a canister then I'd not select it.
You're correct if you placed a canister into some warm water in cold connditions you will get an increase in vapour pressure. I guess getting some warm water in the first instance might be the trick...
I believe the OD-1R offers advantages to a regular needle valved appliance in cold condition and in normal conditions you'll get consistant performance pretty much right to the end of the canister.
I guess it's up to the consumer to decide if the OD-1R is worth the extra investment. But it's not a 'load of marketing hype' as some folk are suggesting.
The trick is to sleep with the canister (for breakfast) or to put the canister inside your jacket (for supper). This keeps the canister warm which allows the fuel to vaporize. With your first bit of gas you heat up some water so that it's warm to lukewarm, and then you place your canister in the water. Generally this technique is pretty safe and works pretty well as long as it's not so cold that your "canister water" freezes before the cooking is done. This works particularly well with mixes that consist of only propane and isobutane. With mixes that contain n-butane, it will work, but not as well if the canister water cools to less than about 4C. To work well, the canister needs to be about 4 or 5 degrees C warmer than the component fuel in the gas with the highest vaporization (boiling) point, typically n-butane (-0.5C).
Very interesting. It should be relatively easy to verify this. Water with ice added to it can be chilled to very close to 0C. If a canister is placed in the water, then likewise the canister will soon be close to 0C. If one uses a canister of 100% butane, then one would expect very low pressure inside the canister. Under these conditions the 0D-1R could be tested against a conventional gas burner. 0C might be too cold to get results with either burner type, but if one were to use water at say 1C, possibly 2C, then I think there should be enough pressure to drive the OD-1R, but not enough to really drive a conventional burner -- assuming that what you're saying is correct.
Does it sound like I'm the right track here, that my experiment could confirm or deny what you've postulated?
This might be very interesting.
I'm glad one of you finally mentioned this technique which is what I and the spouse do all the time. Works great.
That said, while I'm enjoying this thread, I'm going to butt out now since I rarely am outdoors in the extremes you are discussing. However, before I clam up and resume my rightful place as student......
Might I suggest that when the canister comes out of the sleeping bag at 98.6F, that a snug-fitting neoprene cozie wrapped about it might well trap the stored heat long enough to get through morning cooking with no trouble? Just a thought.
Sorry about the non-sequitur. Back to the peanut gallery for me.
Yep that would work for an appliance with a needle valve to give you some elevated vapour pressure to work with or you could boil some water the evening before and slap it in an insulated flask giving you water for a brew in the AM and also water to sort the canister out with. But I would have thought the point of having a regulated appliance that works with low vapour pressure would be to do away with that type of drill?? Human Progress is littered with examples of how new inovation does away with older methodologies of doing things.
The Ice water experiment you're suggesting would be a repeat of SOTO's own 'ice water experiment'
A few posts ago you seemed to be saying that you thought that was a load of rubbish.
All the Ice bath test really achieves is an easily interpreted method for average consumers to understand the issues around vapour pressue in low temps.
We know that at a fixed output rate (valve wide open as that is exactly what you do with a needle valve appliance to get it to run in the low vapour pressue condition) in conditions where vapour production is low a needle valve appliance will not run at full rate.
That's why the video of the two appliances on the common manifold. Manifold Video
Is good it cuts the 'theatrics' of the ice water out and get to the crux of the issue vapour pressure you can see the effect of the low vapour pressure on both type of appliance pretty much straight away. Seeing as we both agree that cold conditions will produce a low vapour pressure conditon in a canister.
Also we now possibly understand that the OD-1R is designed to run on low vapour pressure. The appliance regulation is there to keep the pressure supply to the burner at this low level when vapour pressure is elevated (normal conditions).
Rather than the regulator some how mystically raising the vapour pressure. We also possibly know from our own experience with needle valved appliances or what we've read or watched on youtube that when vapour pressure is low a needle valved appliance will not perform to it's optimum.
Send me one over I'll hook it up to a manifold connect up the manometer run it on low vapour pressure. I'll do the same for a needle valved appliance. I'll also take both snowcaving this winter..
Have we debunked the OD-1R or Debunked the debunking of the OD-1R.
I dont know... I don't have an OD-1R to use. Looking at the stoves REI have on offer and the prices published the OD-1R seems to command a $10.00 premium over it's nearest rival
for that extra $10.00 you get the regulator function and a piezo ignition. So are you actually getting ripped off??
A perfectly good idea. You'd want to "hop to it" and get breakfast cooking right away. Hopefully the insulation would insulate it enough from the outside air and the cooling caused by the gas vaporizing wouldn't cool it down below a usable temperature.
In the test I'm proposing with an icewater bath, I'm proposing that 100% n-butane be used as a fuel. The fuel that was used in the icewater video was a propane/isobutane/n-butane mix, assuming they were using their own canisters. Whatever the mix, it was clearly not 100% n-butane.
I think the icewater bath would be the closest simulation to cold conditions, with temperatures at or near the vaporization point of the fuel, that I can manage with what I have available to me. At temperatures approaching 0C, the vapor pressure in 100% n-butane canisters would be very low. In this way we would know if there were any advantage to the regulated burner.
If what you are saying is correct, there is a temperature range, from a degree or two C above the vaporization point of a given fuel mix to about 4C or 5C above the vaporization point*, where the regulated burner would have an advantage. This is a fairly narrow "band" about 3 to 4 degrees C "wide."
One can employ various tricks to raise the canister temperature fairly easily. With a warmed canister, a conventional burner may perform just as well as a regulated burner. Thus a regulated burner while it does have some advantage might not have a practical advantage. It would be cheaper to just warm the canister than to buy an OD-1R.
Is it worth it to get the more expensive regulated burner? Dunno. But it does make one (well, at least me) stretch a bit as to one's understanding of the underlying principles.
Thanks for some first-class input!
*Generally, a needle valved gas burner will work reasonably well if the canister remains 4 to 5 degrees C above the vaporization point of the gas mixture in the canister.
Interesting what are you basing that statement on?
Sorry to butt in again, but I thought you might enjoy seeing the sixth page of the Soto manual. Here it is:
I'd consider posting the whole manual, but I worry that may be a copyright violation? Mods?
Hope this helps or at least provokes some more interesting discussion.
The Effect of Cold on Gas Canisters by Stuart Robb and Roger Caffin.
Separate names with a comma.