Debunking? the Soto OD-1R Upright Gas Stove.

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by hikin_jim, Mar 21, 2011.

  1. hikin_jim

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    Hi, Gary,

    Interesting diagrams. I think those are meant to illustrate how a regulator works rather than to be an actual diagram of a Soto OD-1R. The gas appears to be flowing in from the left rather than straight up the column from the tank.

    It appears that there is a spring that is wound tighter as one opens the valve. As the tension in the spring increases, the "plug" is forced further into the gas, opening the valve.

    If the pressure drops, the valve spring will have less resistance from the gas, and the plug will go further into the gas, increasing flow in compensation for the loss in pressure.

    Fairly simple in principle (assuming I'm understanding what it's doing).

    HJ
     
  2. johnsnz

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    There is not much point in posting links to stuff that you need to be a subscribing member to access. ;)
     
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  3. hikin_jim

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    If one were to get a subscription to a site, I'd say that site is worthwhile. It's mainly an ultralight backpacking site, but they have a lot of good information about gas stoves. Unfortunately, the site is quite prejudiced against liquid fuel stoves.

    HJ
     
  4. ArcticFlame

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    You don't need a subscription for BPL.
    Just look at Rogers website:
    http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Stoves.htm
    http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm

    That's IMO sufficient to get the basics.

    Besides that, in real life (backpacking tours in late autumn and winter) it's totally unimportant if your stove stops half a degree later (Soto with reduced output) or boils 15 seconds faster (MSR Reactor, just to mention another way of stove design for gassies).


    juergen
     
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  5. johnsnz

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    Thanks for that ArcticFlame...

    'Roger' has some interesting stuff...

    Good job I didn't subscribe to BPL when you can get the same article for free!! Phew thanks for that..It's a tricky old place the interweb..

    We could perhaps ammend the following statement from 'Rogers' Website.

    From:

    Nonetheless, what is by now very clear is that using an upright canister stove at or below freezing can be risky. You must make sure that in cold climates you keep the canister warm so both gases come off at a decent pressure - or use a liquid feed stove.

    To:

    Nonetheless, what is by now very clear is that using an upright canister stove at or below freezing can be risky. You must make sure that in cold climates you keep the canister warm so both gases come off at a decent pressure - or consider a regulated stove or use a liquid feed gas stove.


    Interesting that you mention the MSR Reactor..

    It also uses a regulator.
     
  6. ArcticFlame

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    First of all,
    I really can't see a useful advantage if a stove stops working 1 or 2 degrees later.
    What are you going to do with your Soto if it gets 3 or 4 degrees colder? Or more?
    Weather in late autumn isn't that predictable for 2 weeks or longer.

    If I have to expect temps around or below zero like in late autumn in Northern Lapland (where drops down to -15 are not uncommon) I use a gassie with a liquid fuel supply option.
    Or a white gas/kerosene stove.

    Second, there was a side-by-side comparison in real life by the German Outdoor Magazine.

    At the end of canister life and low temps 2 stoves kept burning a little bit longer but with dramatically lower output: A Soto and a Coleman F1.
    But hey, what the heck is so difficult to switch to a new canister?

    And finally:

    "Interesting that you mention the MSR Reactor.."

    Just for the records :)

    "It also uses a regulator."


    Not really, it's a pressure limiter only, no regulation. With a fixed setting to appr. 0.8 bar, for a completely different reason.
    To understand the function of the reactor this could be helpful:
    http://www.superiorradiant.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=o3v03bm7W84=&tabid=151
    A quite good description of the reactor principle.

    Besides that I recommend taking a Reactor apart and play around with different settings of the pressure limiter and air supply to understand why it's needed.


    In short:
    The operating range of the Reactor is a very small range of air/fuel mix and pressure.
    Outside this range you have either normal flames/flame lift off! or no operation at all.

    BTW, did I mention CO output?
    ;)

    juergen
     
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  7. johnsnz

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    No you didn't... Do tell more... Were any of the tests conducted in a vitiation chamber to an internationally recognised standard??? How many PPM were being produced.

    The article you linked to seems to be generically about IR burners not specifically about the MSR Reactors burner... anyhow...

    We know from real experience in cold weather the pressure in a canister drops... No arguement.

    At some point the temp gets so low that dispite the mixture inside zero vapour production occurs.

    'Roger' has some graphs on this etc...

    We know also know that an appliance with a needle valve will react to this pressure drop with a reduced output as the appliance cannnot generate pressure in the canister but uses it up. So when I take my Kovea TI stove Snowcaving on Mt Ruapehu this is why it's performance is less than spectacular and it takes a while to melt snow for a brew etc... As I continue to use the canister this performance will get worse because the %age of Propane which is happy to vapourise in low temps reduces in the canister.

    If I now take an appliance designed to operate efficently on low pressure to start with and regulate that supply so it's consistantly low then that appliance will be happier operating in an environment where low canister pressures might be expected.

    What I could expect then in my Snowcave on Mt Ruapehu is that this appliance gives a better output my snow melts a bit quicker and I rehydrate faster... I might not have to carry a couple of canisters and swap from one to the other nor immerse cans in water nor sleep with one.
     
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  8. ArcticFlame

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    To answer your CO question:

    "Were any of the tests conducted in a vitiation chamber to an internationally recognised standard??? How many PPM were being produced."

    It was part of a series of articles at BPL (see my disclaimer at the end) dealing with CO.
    A omparison of several gassies.
    Typical CO levels where around 15 ppm for a good stove design, the Reactor produced between 600 and nearly 1000 ppm.....

    "The article you linked to seems to be generically about IR burners not specifically about the MSR Reactors burner... anyhow..."

    The principle is the very same.
    Disassemble a Reactor and you will see it.

    But this is the Soto thread :)

    "If I now take an appliance designed to operate efficently on low pressure to start with and regulate that supply so it's consistantly low then that appliance will be happier operating in an environment where low canister pressures might be expected.
    What I could expect then in my Snowcave on Mt Ruapehu is that this appliance gives a better output my snow melts a bit quicker and I rehydrate faster..."



    A snow cave might indeed be the perfect Soto environment, you normally have nearly constant temperatures around 0 or even higher.

    My environment is completely different.
    +10 to -15 in late autumn and down to -40 in winter.

    Disclaimer:
    I am absolutely no BPL fan. But I have to admit that they know a lot about gassies, especially Roger. For sure more than me.

    juergen
     
  9. hikin_jim

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    John,

    I'm not quite sure that a regulated burner and a liquid feed gas stove should be mentioned in the same breath. A liquid feed stove can be operated down to about -18C/-0F without using any canister warming techniques (at 1000 mBar and using an 20/80 propane/isobutane mix). Under the same conditions, the best you can reasonably hope for with a regulated burner is about -10C/14F (at the same pressure with the same fuel) throughout the life of the canister. To me, eight degrees C is a material difference. The two types, upright canister with a regulated burner and a liquid feed gas stove, are not in the same class.

    HJ
     
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  10. hikin_jim

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    Hi, Juergen, I don't suppose that you would have a link to that article would you? Maybe I can use Google Translator and get the gist of it.

    Interesting. The F1 no doubt lasted longer because it conducts heat to the tank.

    I wonder, would the F1 be dangerous in hot weather? Could the F1 transmit so much heat that on, say, a 45C day (as in the American Southwest), the canister might detonate?

    Temperatures can go even higher than that. The highest recorded temperature I am aware of is 57.8C/136F which was recorded in Libya. The highest temperature ever recorded here in the US that I am aware of is 56.7C/134F which was recorded in a lovely little spot called Death Valley. Catchy name don't you think?

    Perhaps it's best not to use an F1 in temperatures like that.

    HJ
     
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  11. geeves

    geeves New Zealand Subscriber

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    In those temps dont you just use a black anodised pot and leave it in the sun.It would boil in a minute or so.
    Not sure I would want a hot drink on a 50C day so its not really an issue.
     
  12. ArcticFlame

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    Hi Jim.

    I don't have the magazine.
    One of the magazine's employees, responsible for gear tests, made same comments during a discussion of the Soto in a German outdoor forum.

    Here is what he said:

    "We did a comparison between Coleman F1 Lite, Optimus Crux Light, Primus Micron Ti and the Soto OD-1R at temperatures down to -7 deg C and with near empty cartridges as well. With near empty cartridges only Soto and F1 were able to boil a liter of water although it took 15 minutes.

    I use them privately as well. Last week I used the Soto and the rest of the cartridges from our tests at temperatures slightly above 0 deg C and it worked quite well although it took very long to boil water. But except the F1 other models would have failed."

    As for the F1:
    If it would be dangerous the F1 for sure would not be sold in the US ;)
    At least it doesn't come along with more than 20 warnings like the Reactor :)

    Seriously, the warming-up effect is about 3-4 degrees.
    Remember that the fluid level inside the cartridge is well below the top even when full.
    Heat is transferred by the cartridge walls where you have some loss.

    I would assume that it's just enough to compensate for the heat loss caused by vaporization.

    In other words, in my opinion a quite reliable stove for 3-season use above 0 deg C.
    I use the F1 here in the alps till late summer.

    juergen
     
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  13. hikin_jim

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    Interesting! So, even the Soto is affected -- quite a bit -- by the cold. Well, at least it works. And it sounds as though the F1 is nearly as good -- even better if one considers that one can use the F1 in liquid feed mode.

    Ah. Equlibrium in other words. Makes sense. Thank you.

    HJ
     
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  14. johnsnz

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    But it's not a stunning idea to use a stove such as an F1 or any canister top stove in Liquid feed mode for a protracted period for a few reasons.

    1. The F1 and a lot of other canister top stoves have no preheating tube so could be prone to significant flaring.

    2. Feeding Liquid LPG into an appliance designed to run on LPG vapour MAY give problems with the valve and or jet 'gumming up'. Specifically if the LPG Liquid has any contaminants in it such as wax, Ethyl Mercaptan residue, phalates, or oil from the canister production.

    3. You need to check the feedline on the adaptor is happy to pass Liquid LPG as opposed to vapour.
    Hopefully it has a nylon lining.
    Liquid LPG will more readily strip any phalates out of the material which in turn ends up in the appliance supply and weakens the hose.

    Stay safe...
     
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  15. hikin_jim

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    Yes, good points all, but if you go back to the early part of this thread, you'll see "Arctic Flame" has been running the F1 successfully in liquid feed mode.

    HJ
     
  16. johnsnz

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    Yawn...

    Yep I know...
     
  17. hikin_jim

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    Sorry. Hope I'm not keeping you up. ;) :lol:

    Seriously though, running gas stoves in liquid feed mode is pretty common place for winter use. I have not encountered problems when I've done it myself, and I've not heard of problems from others.

    HJ
     
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