E 10 Petrol

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by Surveyor, Jul 21, 2021.

  1. Surveyor

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    I have done a search but may have missed this topic. The UK is introducing E 10 Petrol does anyone know what effect this will have on petrol stoves?
     
  2. Christer Carlsson

    Christer Carlsson Moderator SotM Winner

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    Probably not much, because surely most people don't run their stoves on car petrol anyway, do they?

    If you do, I don't think it's the higher ratio of alcohol that will be your problem, but all the other already existing additives that may cause premature clogging, etc.
    Generally you use a purer type of petrol, like Coleman fuel or any alkylate petrol, and those aren't affected at all by the E10 that's coming.

    But it may be a problem for many older vehicles that don't have hoses, seals, etc., that don't react so well to the increased amount of alcohol.
     
  3. Surveyor

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    Many thanks I use or maybe now used to in my army stoves
     
  4. Fettler United States

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    Could you even avoid E10 going forward as a practical matter? For your stoves I mean. You mention it is being "introduced", that's not quite the same as it being required, but I suspect that's what you mean. Here in the U. states some type of oxygenate is required in all retail automotive gasoline. Formerly it was MTBE, which was found to be polluting groundwater and was subsequently banned. Alcohol is the current replacement.

    Alcohol has certain properties that doesn't necessarily lend itself to operating in a gasoline appliances. An E10 in a stove will run a bit leaner, probably not a major deal. And Coleman "dual fuel" appliances are said to be OK for up to ten percent ethanol. It is also tempting though, financially speaking, for gasoline retailers to juice up the ratio of alcohol far beyond the advertised 10% unfortunately. Testing in the states has found "E10" to be as high as 30 to 35 percent in some cases.

    What might be more concerning are some of the same issues as we've seen in other equipment. It tends to do a good job (bad) of dissolving long dormant gum and varnish residues, and may cause certain types of older rubber gasket materials to deteriorate quickly. I think you'd be OK with it for "now and then" use in your stoves, but it will tend to draw moisture and probably internal corrosion if left in the tank for any extended length of time. Automotive gas in general should be avoided where possible.
     
  5. hikerduane

    hikerduane Subscriber

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    @Fettler, How do you think retailers would increase alcohol content? Fuel comes directly from refineries in most cases except bobtail loads maybe for small stations. They can't customize a load. States test fuel yearly.
    Duane
     
  6. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    I don’t use pump petrol (pump gasoline) in any of my stoves or lanterns even if they’re sold, like some Coleman devices, as “Dual Fuel” or “Unleaded”, because of the additives in unleaded petrol (ULP), other than ethanol.

    I have recently been cleaning up stoves and lamps from a deceased member (@kerry460) and the generators in the lanterns that he ran on ULP all required decarbonising. The ones that he ran in Coleman fuel did not. He used 95 or higher octane unleaded petrol without ethanol.

    E10 (ULP with 10% ethanol) is common and widespread in Australia, and is delivered like that from the refineries, not added after leaving the refinery. E10 has a higher octane rating than ‘standard’ ULP. There are also higher octane rated ULPs commonly available at most retailers.

    I have run my last three vehicles on E10, the latest, now 7 years old, with absolutely no problems with E10 - Subaru made it that way. But I wouldn’t use any ULP in a stove or lantern except in the complete absence of Coleman fuel or equivalent naphtha.


    Cheers

    Tony
     
  7. Marc

    Marc Subscriber

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    Been E10 here my entire life, all my vehicles have run fine on it. The key is to keep it cycled and fresh.

    E10 doesn't store at all. Starts degrading in a couple months. Runs terrible in a year, and in a few years it won't even burn anymore.

    Alcohol is extremely hygroscopic, and that water can cause all kinds of issues with fuel systems. Keep it cycled and fresh and it's not an issue, but storage is BEGGING for trouble.



    I've run pump petrol in my Coleman appliances in the past. I wouldn't do so now, not worth the trouble at all. If you must, go to your local home improvement or hardware store and look for something like Aspen or Trufuel, in the four stroke variety. No oil mixed in.
     
  8. Scrambler

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    "Octane rating" refers only to resistance to ignition under pressure. A higher octane fuel can be used in a higher compression engine. The numbers we are talking here are >10:1. The energy density of the fuel can be lower (as it is with ethanol blends) while the octane rating is higher.

    There is no reason I can see to go higher in the octane rating for a stove. And has been discussed elsewhere, naphtha/Coleman fuel/Shellite is quite low octane but a much better stove fuel.

    There are then a few reasons to not use E10 or similar, unless other options can't be avoided.

    I do wonder about E85 in a Trangia. But it might be better left as a vague ponder.
     
  9. Surveyor

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    The mention of the fuel degrading sounds worrying, especially if you have a vehicle you hardly use let alone for the stove
     
  10. Marc

    Marc Subscriber

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    @Surveyor Sunni's spare car, which she barely drives, is stored on ethanol free fuel for this exact reason.

    For seldom used small engines, it can be an enormous problem. I only run ethanol free in my equipment.
     
  11. Surveyor

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    Many thanks always learning
     
  12. Majicwrench

    Majicwrench Subscriber

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    Any automotive gas, with or without ethanol, degrades quickly. And ethanol, in an unsealed system, can absorb moisture. In a reasonably sealed system, like your typical modern car, is not so much a problem. Lawn mowers etc it is.

    I've got an old green, 95 Subaru sitting behind the shop, been there for at least 4 years, full of E10, I start it and run it around once or twice a year. 380,000 miles and it looks it. So old E10 will burn.

    Oh, I did put some Staybil in tank a couple years ago.
     
  13. Surveyor

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    Do you know I wish we had a like tab for comments when we get useful information so we can show that we like and maybe understand it lol
     
  14. Rangie

    Rangie Subscriber

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    I will be very wary of E10 until I have a bit more experience with it.

    I run predominantly classic vehicles with zinc alloy carburettors or aluminium/zinc alloy fuel injection pipes/rails/filter bowls etc.
    It will mean a swap to tolerant tubing and either draining systems that arent to be used for a few months/over winter, using a stabilising additive/remover, or forking out for premium/super fuel which will remain at E5 or Nil (not worth it for an ex-military 7:1 compression engine designed to be used with 2-Star fuel!)

    With respect to stoves, I transitioned away from Petrol to Naptha a few years ago.
    This is fine for M1950s, Army No.2s, 111Bs, No.8s, 123Rs etc but is haemorrhagingly expensive for Hydra Burners!

    I have the plans for ww2-spec kerosene trombone burners but before that I will be making a kerosene jet for the standard burner. I have tried it previously on kerosene with the standard jet but its a yellow, dirty overfuelled mess.

    So thats the general consensus of options.....
    1. Use it regularly
    2. Drain it after use
    3. Use Naptha
    4. Use an alternative fuel.

    The joys :roll:

    Alec.
     
  15. Marc

    Marc Subscriber

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    I don't believe stabilizers were shown to be hugely effective in preventing moisture issues with E10. Definitely drain your system, or run the good stuff.

    I pony up for non ethanol for my small engines, and add a double dose of stabilizer. Pressure washer started on the second pull, after sitting all winter.
     
  16. Surveyor

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    The supermarket next to work has already started selling it
     
  17. igh371

    igh371 SotM Winner Subscriber

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    I already 'fork out' for best versions of 'Super' for my chainsaws and the 1955 Land Rover - I don't begrudge this. Far rather pay out for the 'Super' than face the pain of time lost due to need to clean out degraded fuel or the costs of rectifying avoidable damage.
    Ian:thumbup:

    (fortuitously I have always had a pathalogical aversion to petrol stoves, only owned 1 long term - a Villiers [enough said:roll:])