Enmanskök för jägare

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by OMC, Feb 5, 2019.

  1. OMC

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    Optimus 91 Tor
    ENMANSKÖK JÄGARE MT (One-man stove Ranger with accessories) source

    Hmmm, Enmanskök accurate surely, i will add that the category of stove discussed can also be referred to as stormkök source , storm-cooker, For discussion are storm-cookers related to Swedish Armed forces and Optimus . This post a collaboration "from what I gather", initially. It's called a one man cooker but FWIW it's adequate to cook for at least 2.

    A ENMANSKÖK JÄGARE is referred to (lately) as "Optimus 91 Tor" but from the beginning (some time after '57) there are various makers and some unmarked. In fact, for most examples, Optimus is not the maker but Optimus 91 Tor term has been used, it's a good reference, I too will adopt the term.

    To backup just slightly for a moment: before Optimus 91 Tor was the Esbit 27.
    Aside from Esbit name, the shape of the vents and it had 2 grips. Otherwise the observation is, basically kits that came after the Esbit 27, copied it.
    esbit27&91Tor.jpg
    84 in image is Esbit 27, 86 is Optimus Tor 91.
    It is said that both had a pan/lid, 2 pots: 1L & 1.5L, 2 piece windscreen, same spirit burner, leather strap.
    FWIW > If referred to as Optimus 91, note that the earlier Optimus 91 Tor has large military surplus burner, vs the later model "Optimus 91 purple flame" uses a sm. burner.
    If it interest some here's a better look at an early solid fuel esbit but maybe missing a pot? Solid fuel, so no place for spirit burner.

    Here are examples of what we refer to as the Optimus Tor 91, as described:
    an L&L 70 . As is the case for this discussion, he describes it as "swedish military Optimus" (TY Lennart) .
    an L&L 76
    Enmanskök för jägare as seen in Swedish soldier instruction

    stejar mentions there are unmarked kits and "Optimus" marked kits are rare (unseen to date?). Were some Optimus made/branded kits unmarked... at any rate, at the mo, I struggle differentiating between the earliest Optimus 88 / 77A and an 91 Tor "Optimus" marked.

    "Optimus 88".. say what? !! , yes
    Optimus 88 Jägarkök I expect I join others not sure what to make of it. The kit is the same as a 77A / Tor 91.
    The Red tote bag, non leather strap, says later (after 79?). Old loops on pan/lid and large pot says earlier and there's a different model 88 new in '73 all that says pre-73?
    88 has "Optimus" on (rare!) military sz. burner yet pan/lid w/no logo... not sure on that?

    Optimus 77A "new" in 1973, now w/"Optimus" logo for sure. 77A production may have ended c1986, more later. 77A is civilian offering of the military Optimus Tor 91 (both use Lg. military burners). Very little differences through many years: loops on pan lid, straps, burner support in lower windscreen (some flat, some recessed). here not a "1971" btw.

    Credit @Afterburner for his 77A and his comment #1 suffices. :thumbup:
    77A specs:
    > pan/lid 1.20L (8"),
    > pots: inner1.30L ~ outer 1.40L ( 7" ~ 7 1/2") [both seen listed as 1.33L, not]
    > unmarked burners (83mm base) w/ or w/o simmer ring
    > strap non leather (yellow & blue or red & blue).
    > pot gripper
    ------
    What comes next... in '87 Swedish military used the Optimus 85 Loke which, I assume, replaced the Optimus 91 Tor.
    SO, the Loke had some changes along the way (or civilian vs *military), anyway there are different pot, pans & windscreens. *military may have 3 crowns stamp?
    It very much looks like one type of Loke still used the Tor91 / 77A pan/lid, pots & upper windscreen?
    seen here:
    Opti85Loke.JPG

    Then there's the
    86 VALE, also in 87 introduced the seldom heard of Optimus 86 VALE with spirit burner w/very different pots & pan (vs 77A predecessor). It seems, c'86 was the end of 77A production?

    Optimus 86 VALE
    Opti86Vale.JPG
    seems to me, 86 VALE still uses Lg. burner.
    Note too, the only difference between 86 Vale & 81 Trapper is the bottom section (& how the stove works of course).

    I have missed much but it does finally bring me to (end of Optimus storm-cookers for now)...

    ...the Optimus 91 Purple Flame.
    It too continues to use all the same parts as the 77A / 91 Tor
    except re burner, small (non-military) burner and different lower windscreen to
    accept the smaller burner and has a hole in side to
    accept fuel line for an optional burner.

    Opti91PurpleFlame.JPG

    Opti91PurpleFlame2.JPG

    all for now, gotta run, late as usual, thx omc
     
  2. Lennart F Norway

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    I prefer to say it is an enlarged Esbit 27.
    Here I compare a regular Esbit 27 with the 1970 military Optimus(I don't think it had an official Optimus name).
    IMG_20190205_220914.jpg

    The Esbit 27 use to have one pot but the big one with two pots seems to be a direct forerunner to the Optimus versions.
    IMG_20190205_220045.jpg [​IMG]
    https://esbit.de/en/made-to/
     
  3. pysen78

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    Regarding the 85 Loke.
    My understanding is that it was developed for the military, to utilize existing kits.
    My Loke came unused in a heavy duty plastic bag, with only the lower part of the windscreen, midi pump and a service kit.
    Possibly a simple instruction sheet.

    The red case civilian model with larger pots, and bells and whistles must have come later on.
     
  4. OMC

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    Feedback for this discussion is well received and much appreciated.

    pysen, This is first I'm aware of Optimus storm cookers presented as a group. Seeing them all in one group can be helpful (if detailed info is what you seek).
    Your comment is an excellent contribution, a little known fact that will surely make it's way into Loke reference post(s) in the future. thank you

    all,
    Lennart,
    Your observation that the Esbit 27 is smaller makes sense,
    thank you.
    That and that there was a larger early Esbit model... model #???.
    27 being smaller is contrary to stejar post, my source, but he does caveat his comments with "I have not studied the ENMANSKÖK JÄGARE MT in depth".

    Re your "...1970 military Optimus(I don't think it had an official Optimus name)" hmmm, I would have guessed your pan/lid was stamped L&L 70 (like the handle), no?

    Anyway, it's a given that there is no support to assign "Optimus" to any/all early military issue but if Optimus was one of the suppliers then it is a good model to reference and certainly for purpose of this Optimus storm cooker post, … all is well, no? (or we learn more)
    thanks again omc
     
  5. Lennart F Norway

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    Optimus used at least three producer stamps on 1960's-70's products for the swedish government(all defence etc.) - SVEA seems to be most common in the 60's and L&L in the 70's.
    Since Optimus merged with Primus and some other producers it seemes they started to buy a significant number of cookware- and burner-parts from other producers - some Optimus cookware seems to be made with swedish material and BAT tools in the Honecker era and later Taiwan - Primus had sets made by Trangia with slight adaptation for Primus stoves but today they seem to be made in China.
    The stamps on military stoves seem to be "factory" - not trade mark or company.
     
  6. gieorgijewski

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  7. OMC

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    I'll try this @David Roberts,
    I welcomed you and said: "You posted an "Optimus Alcohol Stove",well done man! There is nothing I can add to your reference post, it does interest me..."

    You have, now, added: "I bought this Optimus new from an old camping store in Baltimore Maryland about 1978.
    That store was amazing and stocked to the rafters with old surplus WWII stuff.
    "

    Placing your storm cooker as purchased new in 1978... that's good stuff. Unclear if you think it was c78 or "NOS surplus" in '78.
    Yours has Optimus logo and ARNO strap of a vintage, interesting that one. Here she is:

    88_davids.JPG

    88_davidsb.JPG


    I'm not pressing you for answers here
    , not at all. It's a topic of interest for years and stretches far beyond you & I.
    I guess it would help to know that there are no markings on lifter or burner? (there were unmarked burners). If unmarked, a pic of the bottom might help.
    Although it's posted in "88" category, "I think" you were wise to use term: Optimus Alcohol Stove (fwiw now, it's less clear, if there: other markings add puzzle pieces).

    88, 77A etc and military issue storm cookers of this type inherently cause confusion, they consist of interchangeable parts.
    Other members better understand some of the Sweden military issue (ie the "77A like", no logo iirc).
    I "thought" myself & others had the civilian 77A pretty well figured out but the 88 is related and it's unclear when/where/how the 88 fits in.
    thx omc
    fyi tag: @Lennart F
    PS: A dated NOS of 88 or 77A could go long way to sort things.
     
  8. Lennart F Norway

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    :-k:-k:-k That one looks like 88, big civilian burner with late 70's style windshield - 90 is same stove but new numbers on pans(looks similar in parts list), I guess updated pressing.
     
  9. OMC

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    OLD thread
    Indeed continuing from above... we learn more !!
    Credit Staffan's excellent recent post:
    Optimus 88A military stove "Enmanskök jägare"

    Given that ^^^^. … i think the topic has advanced a by a bunch! :thumbup::thumbup:
    ---------------------

    I apoliogize Staffan, I'm sorry to ask of you so much but your updated 88 details do open many questions (Qs below).

    Quick questions being sooo much easier than answers... I'm not expecting quick answers and maybe some details will go unanswered for the short term, that is surely a-ok too.

    Most of the stormcookers related to this post involve a quite specific type storm cooker ("The design was defined by the [Swedish?] armed forces.)"

    including the civilian 77A, the exact same specs (for the two pots, burner, pan/lid, strap & handle) same pieces were in-use / produced by multiple makers for decades (my impression).

    We see the "Optimus (77A)" storm cooker offering began in '73 and we have learned, in '73 that 77A pieces match military spec. stormcookers (same parts used for decades to come), see '73 ad ,

    Also note: Afterburner's NOS example: (civilian) early Optimus 77a
    -------------------------------------------------------

    I can MISS the obvious (and not alone in that), sorry...
    @Afterburner, Sorry to bother you,
    We've discussed your 77a (in 2014), it was then I should have requested a glimpse of your 77a user's manual? ("It was complete with user manual.")
    It's terrible I ask this soooo late but
    Could you?
    please, post pic(s) of the 77a user's manual? (link to your NOS 77a is just above).
    --------------------------

    I'll note that on CCS we're fortunate to also have (rare?) example of a civilian Optimus 88 stormcooker (again pieces with same specs). We lack some details with that one.
    It does have the optimus name/logo on lid of alcohol burner... a rare sight (and logo provides some approx. dating)
    I vaguely recalled one rare alcohol burner with stylized Optimus logo BUT I was unable to find it. I'm now thinking my confuser was acting up, more likely there is no such rare example?... just another senior moment.
    -----------------------------

    Staffan,
    re above my "PS: A dated NOS of 88 or 77A could go long way to sort things."
    THANK YOU
    for posting a dated Optimus 88 military (link above),
    again sorry for ongoing questions (answer if/when you want):
    Q1. Is my impression correct, your example as shown is 1996?
    "Godkänt beställning 1996-11-08"

    Q2. Given your comment Optimus submitted "...old sample that had been approved in previous contracts."
    This would make version shown "old sample", …. or
    approx. 19__? to 1996 onward.
    Might you suggest approx. year to fill in the blank, 19__?
    or comment.

    Q3. So far on CCS, we've seen no indicator that, (renowned brass stove maker) Optimus, made their own alcohol burners... is there any detail / update you might add?
    On CCS we've discussed Swedish military alcohol burner details. I myself do not recall a "P93" nor what P93 might indicate.
    [have seen 3 crowns with "Trangia", "NC 64 (-78) SVEA", "HP 88" ?.]

    Afterburner's 77a (i have same), the only maker mark is large "Optimus" on pan/lid. No markings on lg burner, impression is military sz but not military issue. One wonders...
    If same stormcookers with pan/lid embossed with large "Optimus" on lid, if they are all civilian versions [logo indicative of early civilian versions].
    and
    Do all the military issue pan / lids not have maker name?
    Q4 Does your Optimus 88 military version have "Optimus" on it anywhere?

    Request: IF there are markings on your 88 (in addition to 3 crowns P93 on burner)… eventually might you, please, add pics of any markings to your post?

    enough already, so sorry for going long again.
    (and i'm running late for a job, again)
    catch up later, thx omc out
    @Staffan Rönn
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  10. Staffan Rönn

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    Hi @OMC ,
    I think I may miss something in my alert settings, I only noticed your questions by browsing the thread. Anyhow, I don't mind questions at all!!

    Q1 - Yes, correct. This approval is dated November 1996 with the exception of the strap. Now, this was the go signal to produce so even if the strap would have been approved at the same time, delivery would still be approx 3 months later or so. In this case delivery of the stoves probably took place shortly after the strap was approved, so April/May 1997 is a qualified guess. I believe, but have no proof, that this was the last batch of complete 88A's that were made. Optimus did on several occasions for another 10 years or so make and deliver spare components (typically pots and pans) to the Swedish armed forces.

    Q2 - I go partly by hearsay from a former CTO at Optimus here who said this goes back sometime in the 1980's. No solid proof. I know it was re-used as a mastersample at least during the 1990's. Possibly (and most likely) individual components could have been replaced e.g. due to damages in handling of the sample or for any other reason. See also below remark on the burner.

    Q3 - The only marking on this unit is at the bottom of the burner. My very qualified guess is that the burner is made 1993 and P is the first letter of the company name of the producer of the burner (P93 stamping). Optimus did purchase them from a company that had a long history of making metal components to the Armed Forces. I doubt, but I do not know for sure, that Optimus ever made these burners by themselves during the time of the production in Upplands Väsby. My guess is that they were always outsourced. It's plausible that the other markings you refer to are then from other suppliers of these stoves and year they were made.

    Q4 - No - the only marking on this unit is the ownership mark (three crowns) and the P93 on the burner.

    Best regards,
    Staffan
     
  11. OMC

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    Many thanks to you, this is very much appreciated.
    Your excellent "Optimus 88A military stove" combined with above answers has definitely advanced the topic.
    -------------------------
    Membership is making progress on-topic and there's more to learn.
    -------------------------
    Stejar discloses for his relevant details he had "...not studied the ENMANSKÖK JÄGARE MT in depth ".
    Given updates since, going forward my use of "Optimus 91" name may not be best / accurate.
    Stejar in 2015 did also share with us:
    M2824 Enmanskök Jägare (MT) ..1 man's cooker (mountain/special forces).

    Corrections welcome, but ^^^^ that term seems to apply
    to the 1st version (c57/58) through
    to the last version 1997 and any maker.

    A c1956 indicator, credit Stejar "...known example in the Army Museum … designated “one-man-stove for ranger ca 1956

    It seems quite early (by early 60s?):
    > the use of 1 man's storm-cooker was not limited to mountain / special forces and
    > multiple makers were providing the M2824 storm-cookers w/alcohol burners in-part or whole.
    Early-on and going forward, many military issue pieces were unmarked (there were some pcs. that were marked <-- that's a WIP).
    That said.. re the burners: most military issue burners were marked indicating maker & year.
    ------------------------

    OPTIMUS... while providing military M2824s was ongoing?,
    in 1973, Optimus offers a civilian version 77a. My impression, 77a is the same sturdy storm-cooker (defined by military) but with "Optimus" stamped onto pan/lid and as it turns out, civilian version has an unmarked burner.
    all for now, thx omc
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  12. Staffan Rönn

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    Regarding the 77A, there is definitely reference made to the military version. In the old Swedish sheet below (probably from 70's) it is written "Used by the Swedish Army special units."

    img462.jpg
     
  13. OMC

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    Thank you, that is awesome !

    all, that is sooo cool, and for us non-Swedes... what does it all mean?

    NOTE: Considering multiple translations, in my view (American English),
    RE Swedish cookware words, related to storm-cookers & camp cook sets ie:
    kokkärl, kastrull, kastruller,
    kokkärlen, kärlen, koksats, lock...
    We might often translate all of the above to PANS
    and at times Saucepan (kastrull) & frypan / lid (stekpanna / lock).
    Here's a best effort at translation of above text....

    OPTIMUS 77A
    Storm-cooker
    Cooker has 3 pans. Used by Swedish Army Special Forces.
    Works even in wind and cold and at high altitudes.

    - Explosion proof
    - Burns methylated spirit
    - No pre-heating
    - Small heat loss
    - Windproof
    - Pans and windscreen made of aluminum

    Technical data:
    Cooks 1 liter water in about 20 minutes.
    Fuel consumption about 0.17 liter / hour.
    The burner burns for about 40 minutes on a filling.
    Each pan holds about 1 1/3 liters.
    [[ stekpanna / lock 1.20L, kastruller: 1.30L och 1.40L ]]
    [[ frypan / lid 1.20 L (8"), saucepans: 1.30L and 1.40L ( 7" & 7 1/2") ]]
    Total weight 0.7 kg.
    Height 100 mm. Max diam 205 mm.
    -------------------
    thx again omc
    @Staffan Rönn
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  14. Lennart F Norway

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    Excellent translation!:clap: - I could not do it better myself.
     
  15. OMC

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    Thank you Lennart.
    -------------

    Hello AB @Afterburner ,
    I have in past referred to your 77A as excellent example and you mentioned it was "..unfired 77A. It was complete with users manual."

    MUCH has been learned on-topic since 2014 when you and I last discussed 77As.
    More has been learned since my reference again to your 77A in my OP (original post) above 8 mos. ago. Below I will add updated comment.

    Is there any way you can share the users manual with us? is it "Optimus 77A" manual?
    Either way a storm cooker manual will be nice to see (pretty sure I've not seen any yet (Optimus or otherwise).

    Oh, myself, I am certain your unmarked burner is the correct 77A burner, it is one that Optimus used with 77As.
    ------------------------

    Another main reason I post now is to run things past Lennart...

    AB, Lennart, in past I used AB's unfired 77A as reference.
    I post now, curious, revisiting the pan/lid. I wonder should not all "Optimus 77A" pan/lids:
    > have belt loops attached on the sides ? I think yes, (not the slits) and
    > Optimus logo on top? (for all "77A" which is civilian version).

    So FYI to Lennart and others, sorry if I may have caused confusion above (and 5 years ago).
    I'm currently thinking all 77A pan/lids would look like this:

    IMG_0213.JPG

    So if this ^^^^ is type/shape of pan/lid, if it does not have loops it is not Optimus (is what I'm considering)?
    Almost all Optimus pan/lids have these loops but I had to specify "type/shape of pan lid" because
    at some point in the 80s and beyond, Optimus offers a different pan/lid (like we see w/Loke & Trapper examples).

    Military issue storm cookers also used the above type/shape pan lid.
    Very few, if any?, military issue have the Optimus logo ("I think" not).
    thx omc
    @Lennart F
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019 at 11:46 PM
  16. Lennart F Norway

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    @OMC - I think you are right there and that your picture show the pan of an early 77A with old logo and strap material, I guess it came with the Optimus military style burner.
    Very recently I bought what I estimate to be a late 77A - old version of windshield, new logo on pan and burner lid, unmarked burner similar to SVEA military but very inferior material and new inferior material strap, packed in a red "Optimus international" cover.
    The 77A info picture recently translated show a burner looking exactly like SVEA military so I think it is drawn around mid production.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 5:12 AM
  17. OMC

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    @Lennart F
    (are you getting this ^^^^ alert btw. I'm surprised AB has not replied?. and wonder did the alert to him work)
    ------------------
    re your "... what I estimate to be a late 77A - old version of windshield, new logo on pan and burner lid, unmarked burner similar to SVEA military but very inferior material... "

    You maybe want to compare your new piece with this 88 ? and as I mention in this OP I'm not exactly sure what to make of an 88. That 88 does not include clear image of the pan/lid so unsure if that one has logo?
    ----------------------

    re your "The 77A info picture recently translated show a burner looking exactly like SVEA military so I think it is drawn around mid production."

    You're referring to an ad above, by Optimus.
    We consider the source (not the greatest track record).
    Any/all stove documents might reveal an important detail/clue, so yes, take it into consideration.
    That said, illustrations (used for marketing purposes) have proven to be problematic / inaccurate.
    -----------------------

    re your "... like SVEA military [burner]…"
    Might you help out this damn yankee,
    you're a Swede, you wrote "SVEA military"
    am I correct your intended meaning was aka in English as
    Swedish Military burner or
    Swedish Military burner (alcohol). … is this correct?
    ------------------------

    I do not ask you the above question without doing my homework.
    I am certain, w/o checking, you have recently pointed out,
    re the "SVEA" on late 50s -to- 70s military burners:
    readers should not associate that --> "SVEA" with
    Sievert / Svea stove maker.

    Your advice (elsewhere) re markings on Swedish military burners may not represent a company name. IE "SVEA" on military burners, is probably not the Sievert/Svea stove maker [that "SVEA" is more likely a nod to country: Sweden].

    FYI That makes sense and you are in good company with comment in that regard. You join others that have also occasionally pointed that out, pretty much, since CCS began.
    best regards omc
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019 at 5:21 PM
  18. Lennart F Norway

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    The 88 you mention has identic markings and bag as my latest 77A(pans&windshield in early 70's version just later markings).
    The "swedish military burner" is a size and general pattern made by several providers in some different versions on military contracts - the version I refer to has the "quick-twist" lid and use to(always?) be marked SVEA(may be made by Sievert but i've not seen confirmation) - the liquid fueled Sievert line was aquired by Optimus in the 70's. Te other military burners had regular threaded caps, Optimus had its own old style cap seen in early 77A and most other(producer codes) used Trangia style. Even Trangia made a batch of those burners(just the burners) for the swedish military. Most codes were two letters for producer and two digits most likely telling the year.

    The above stoves compared with my latest make me think the 77A and 88 were produced parallell for a couple of years or something.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019 at 9:39 PM