German CTR markings on Stoves

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by kerophile, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hi, there has been a recent post of a Swedish Primus No.71 stove, which also has the German CTR marking. In this case CTR 8.

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/primus-71-c-t-r-8-for-the-german-market-nos.35233/


    The CTR designation refers to the German Imperial Institute of Chemistry and Technology, and the Technical authority for setting Standards. This Institute was founded in the late 19th/early 20th Century and became the Technical Authority for Germany.
    The idea was subsequently copied by the British and the National Physical Laboratory was founded.
    I guess just as we in the UK have the BS (British Standard) designation the Germans might have had a CTR system.

    The CRT Standards System seems to have existed until the end of WW2, and the partition of Germany, when it was replaced by two separate Standards Systems.

    There are now at least 4 different stoves shown on CCS, which exhibit the CTR mark.

    1. The recent Primus No.71, dated 1941, which is marked CTR 8:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/primus-71-c-t-r-8-for-the-german-market-nos.35233/

    2. A Juwel No.33, also from 1941, marked CTR 5:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/juwel-33-1941.18074/

    3. An Optimus No.8, also probably from the WW2 period, marked CTR 10:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/optimus-no-8-german.20458/#post-210280

    4. Another Juwel No.33, marked CTR 5:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/juwel-33u-brass-tank.22239/

    There is also another Juwel No.33 from the WW2 period with a 4 bar Eagle and Swastika marking, which Christer suggests might refer to an alternative Standards Authority (perhaps operating alongside the CTR System?):

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/juwel-33-4-bar-eagle-swastika.23462/


    The CTR System, and how it relates to stoves, is a subject worthy of additional research. Unfortunately I am not a German speaker, so Google searches are of limited use to me. We need volunteers.

    If the CTR Standards system operated as others, it would seem logical that each device would have a type approval, and that number would appear on the relevant device or object.
    I have only illustrated a few stoves in this post, but we have three types of small gasoline fuelled stoves with three different CTR numbers:

    CTR 5 for the Juwel No.33

    CTR 8 for the Primus No.71 and

    CTR 10 for the Optimus No.8.

    Just some thoughts
    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
  2. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hi, just noticed that we have another data point:

    5. Arara No.37 from WW2 period CTR 15:

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
  3. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

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    Thanks, Kerophile,
    I will post a gallery entry once I find my digital camera.
    The Arara needs a major fettling, it was sold as a war souvenir, not a working stove. The key/tool was lost and the regulating valve is stuck closed. Looking up the Arara 37 on Google led me to this site. Now I'm hooked.
     
  4. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

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    @kerophile: The marking on the Jewel 33 that's not CTR-stamped is called a Waffenamt mark. Literally ''weapons office'', or military procurement, hence the WaA387. Also occurs on small arms.
    It's the equivalent of the Broad Arrow on UK and Commonwealth equipment, signifying Crown Property, as well as the US on American gear, meaning Government Property.
    Also German wartime stoves were painted olive green [a color still in use today by Bundeswehr] if issued to the Army, while Luftwaffe aircraft survival kit stoves were a silver gray or light metallic blue.
     
  5. janders

    janders Subscriber

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    @SveaSizzler
    I believe I have seen an ARARA 37 in sandcoloured paint as well... Claimed to originate from the African Corps....

    I'll have another look in Google and see if I can find it again
     
  6. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

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    It is "half true"...
    DAK - was "ended" in I 1943
    but... in Poland some germans field gears was in "DAK" colours
    I'am talking about things like ammo containers, canisters, vehickles.
    - its mean - properly will be ...Claimed to originate for the African Corps...
     
  7. janders

    janders Subscriber

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  8. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

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    it is very hard to find real photo of german stove use
    DAK - Luftwaffe/ finded in Japan WWW site


    arara33.jpg
     
  9. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

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    As German strategic goals were to envelope the Near East -- Rommel pushing thru Egypt, Army Group South thru southern Russia, puppet pro-Axis regime in Iraq, 5th column action in Vichy Syria -- it might have worked but for Stalingrad and El Alamein. In retrospect it may seen overly optimistic to issue light colored tropical camouflage on the Eastern Front, but the Germans were prepared, just not for all eventualities.
    After the fall of the DAK in Tunisia, the German supply element had a lot of stuff in sand yellow and just issued it anyway, anywhere to use it up.

    Great photo Gieorgi. Hard to tell if the Juwel 33 is gray or khaki in this B&W pic. Looks like they're packing a cookset [Sigg, Meta, ?] as well as a Trinkwasserflasche 5L. Guy on right is running a patch thru the barrel of the Stuka's Aft MG15 kugel [ball] gun. Rifle on left could be a Kar98. Two 'beta' mags for the MG15 on top of what looks like a Brit 5 gallon ''flimsy'' fuel can. Guy on left is shaking a small part [bolt, sear ?] in his left hand -- probably excess solvent -- see the blur? Dufflebags likely have sleepingbags, more clothes, food, tarp, etc.
    Also of interest on camera right is the Luftwaffe survival rifle by Sauer, the M30 Drilling - a 3 barrel rifle, one in .375 Nitro Express and 2 bbls in 12 Ga.

    Thanks, Janders. I wouldn't be surprised if they issued stoves for the BundesDeutscheMadels [BDM] in pink. JK.
     
  10. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

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  11. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

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    [​IMG]
    date and author
     
  12. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

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    Great photos, Gieorgi.
    I guess the Germans were being overly optimistic. Their strategic goal was to envelope the Near East -- Rommel thru Egypt, eventually linking up somewhere around the Levant with Army Group South thru southern Russia. Turkey was neutral. Fifth Column elements were in Vichy-held Syria, and a pro-Axis puppet regime was briefly in Irag. Only Stalingrad and El Alamein changed their plans.
    Once the DAK folded, a lot of tropical camouflage gear was issued anyway, anywhere, just to use it up.
    It's hard to tell from a B&W shot what color the Juwel 33 is in the first pic. Could be gray, could be sand yellow. The guy on the right is running a patch thru the barrel of the Stuka's aft MG15, weapon on left is likely a Mauser Kar98. Weapon on the right is a rare Sauer ''Drilling'' M30, Luftwaffe Afrika survival rifle w/ 3 barrels: 2 in 12 Ga. and one in .375 Nitro Express [or Axis equivalent]. Guy on the left is shaking [solvent?] off a small part in his left hand. [Lefty?]. Foreground we see a 5L Trinkwasserflasche, a sturmkocher under the stove [Meta, Sigg?], some gear bags, possibly a Brit 5 gallon ''Flimsy'' fuel can, with 2 MG15 'beta' mags on top.
    Also hard to tell what make of stormcooker it is in the middle photo. Jerry can on left has white cross, that signified WATER. Both sides marked their water cans with white crosses. I think the guy standing up is pouring tea into a canteen cup.
    It would be cool to have an Arara 37 in DAK sand yellow, but I'm not repainting mine. I got a dozen East German mess tins for about $20, some years ago. I've given several away to friends. Since the M31 Kochgeschir hasn't changed much in 86 years, I might change the color of one of them to sandy yellow, and have fun with it. Not to pass it off as a genuine WWII artifact. A number of European and Asian militarys used the same, or similar mess tin.
    Cheers, Brian
     
  13. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

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    could You check WWII Intelligence Report in Congress Library in german stove heater subject?
    --------
    [​IMG]
    IMO - vehickle - ordered equiped late 1943/spring 44
    at right ersatz versions
    both - have fitting mounting "points"
     
  14. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

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    I'll check. I'm unfamiliar with LOC as an online source.

    Sorry about the repeat message. I thought it had not posted last night. Guess I should've hit renew.
    Cheers.
     
  15. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

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    NO RESULTS found under ''WWII US Army Intelligence reports on German stove heaters.''

    No doubt it's in there, buried under the odd Ark of the Covenant or two, but it did not come up online. Some stuff on V2/A4 rockets, Nurenburg war crimes, etc, but stove heaters aren't on top.
     
  16. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

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    SveaSizzler, @SveaSizzler
    I mean no disrespect, I appreciate all your input, I absolutely do. I've been zooming in on the pics and following your comments.
    There are many members with interest in German stoves,
    I'm sure even more are interested in all things WW2 and guns... oh heck yes (guns not me fwiw).
    You have interest and knowledge re German WW2 which (i'm finding out) includes some elusive details. Gieorgi has input on many fronts but even just the military surplus he has posted is mind-boggling.

    If you were to start a topic, WW2 German gear or the like, I am sure it will be enthusiastically engaged by many, just a thought.

    It shows you've been a member 9 months. For WW2 you will not be disappointed. There is no doubt that there are many popular WW2 related topics posted long before you or I ever came on the scene here.

    CTR bump
    @kerophile Re CTR, I'm sorry I've got nothing, and not for lack of trying.
    I can only add that for me the No.8 is unique. Optimus adopted their No. 8 assembly line (in Sweden) to make that stove (I looked at a lot of 8s).
    The other stoves w/CTR were either made in Germany or the addition of CTR, like on the P71 is an after production add-on.

    The language barrier does hinder progress and I ditto your "The CTR System, and how it relates to stoves, is a subject worthy of additional research."
    I find the CTR stove connection (&timeline) very interesting,
    You find the German system founded possibly as early as late 19th century, "CTR" was adopted at some point, in use til end of WW2 (45) and division of post war Germany complete (49). Stoves w/such CRT labeling are NLT1949 seems safe to say. I too am hoping more CTR details arise.
    thanks for posting it, omc
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  17. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

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    Sorry I may tend to get off topic, especially if I get enthusistic on a subject. I used to build 1/72 scale aircraft and vehicles, and the Western Desert Campaign was a favorite.

    CTR stood for << Chemische Technische Reichsanstalt >> tranlates as Government Chemical Technical Institute, or Reichs Chemical Technical Institute. Postwar it was replaced in the West by the Bundesanstalt fur Materialforschung und -prufing [BAM].

    In the United States, a similar function is covered by Underwriters Laboratories [UL], a private company.
     
  18. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

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    thanks and
    re "...if I get enthusistic on a subject. I used to build 1/72 scale aircraft and vehicles, and the Western Desert Campaign was a favorite."
    Sounds good, cool.
    omc
     
  19. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

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    SveaSizzler, @SveaSizzler
    re "Chemische Technische Reichsanstalt" why thank you.
    so
    re "CTR stood for << Chemische Technische Reichsanstalt >> translates..."
    ... hang on... my search/translate path took a slightly different turn:

    LINK> ... https://translate.google.com/transl....wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsanstalt&prev=search

    >I get topic Reichsanstalt includes many subtitles / hyperlinks there-in including,
    quote "the Chemisch-Technische Reichsanstalt (former Military Research Office )"
    the hyperlink finds, as you also mention, CTR became BAM Bundesanstalt für Materialforschung und -prüfung
    Now the good part, within BAM is it's history, and voila...
    1920-1945: Chemisch-Technische Reichsanstalt (CTR) as a successor institution of the military research office founded in 1889

    next after 45 less clear, seems CTR may continue 1945 - 54?
    1945 -54: ...and CTR under the Magistrate of Berlin

    1954 Takeover of newly formed BAM from the Federal Republic of Germany
    As BAM, the description no longer mentions military.

    We consider the source is "translated wiki" but this is CRT detail new to me.

    Thank you once again SS, collaboration is key :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: to effectively unlock stovie mysteries.
    omc
     
  20. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

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    I used Wikipedia and Collins online German/English Dictionary. WP no longer 'clicks' on CTR. (9 months ago, I thought it did.) It does crossreference with Federal Institute for Materials Research and Testing [BAM]. I had to interpolate from there.
    Ironically, it was the CTR 15 marking on an evil bay purchase [that I paid way too much for] of the Arara 37 that led me to this site. A future topic might be ''WWI Soldiers' Trench Stoves''. As that was what it was listed under by an ignorant seller, who thought the '15' in CTR 15 was a 1915 date stamp.
    As for the military angle, I didn't pick up on that, but I guess under Kaiser Willie, ALL research for the State was for Military purposes.
    OBTW, let's make my initials <<SvS>> as SS already exists as the Fuhrer's Bodyguards' initials and I wish total disambiguation from that organization.
    Cheers,
    SvS