German CTR markings on Stoves

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by kerophile, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,303
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    ok OLD THREAD
    picking up on SveaSizzler's comments re his Arara 37 w/CTR 15.

    So back in '08 less was known on CCS re CTR significance. So although this is an informative post CTR reference is absent. It's a good read with reference to WW2 German military use and that "The Arara 37 and *Juwel 33 are VERY similar but not identical."
    Arara 37 (CTR 15) & Juwel 33 (CTR 5).

    Quick note 37 vs 33, judging only buy our gallery the 37 is more rare. Both were produced with and without the CTR marking. To consider only "CTR" subset and which is more rare of those, the 33 vs 37? that is another question.

    BTW the also VERY similar Juwel 34 production includes a time "CTR" marking were in-use. Posted to date, i'm unaware of CTR on any 34s and in gallery I did not find CTR marking an any Arara models other than the 37.

    The above link (again, posted in '08) pertains to boondocker's 37, seems unlikely to me it is marked CTR but we don't know. There's a 2nd 37 in that same post, also unsure re it having "CTR", doubtful imo.
    In 2012 Iani shared his Arara 37 with CTR 15. well done.

    Today, myself and others are inspired by an ongoing current post of harder's Arara 37 with CTR 15.
    thx omc
     
  2. JamesBob United States

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2018
    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Dominican Republic
    How often do you find yourself thinking about this? I would go mad. I should just keep to my opinions to myself today.
     
  3. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    16,487
    Location:
    North Carolina
    ROFLMAO!!!!!
     
  4. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

    Online
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,273
    Location:
    Tucson, Arizona
    Here's a pic of the CTR15 stamp on my Arara 37: DSC00184.JPG
     
  5. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    13,171
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
  6. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,760
  7. SveaSizzler

    SveaSizzler United States Subscriber

    Online
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,273
    Location:
    Tucson, Arizona
    I flunked out of High School German.
     
  8. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    13,171
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
    The regulation is for all gasoline stoves and if the law was strictly applied, which the Germans were inclined to, all gasoline fuelled stoves from this period should have been stamped with the appropriate CTR No.

    Equally we should see no CTR codes on Kerosene or alcohol stoves.

    Imported gasoline fuelled stoves should also have been appropriately CTR marked, and we have seen Swedish CTR marked stoves from WW2.

    Best Regards,
    George.
     
  9. anfeng

    anfeng SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    Messages:
    157
  10. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,303
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    kerophile,
    We've discussed this and coincidently Staffan recently made mention.

    Re your "...all gasoline fuelled stoves from this period should have been stamped with the appropriate CTR No."
    I got that, and that factors into this for sure, check.
    2 things to maybe also consider
    A. ... from this period ... here or elsewhere we have best guess at approx. year range for CTR stamped stoves?
    and
    B. "all gasoline fuelled stoves from this period should have been stamped..." ok yes but to mention this can stray from initial thought of CTR/ German military connection.
    So, with the
    *Swedish models aside (for the moment)
    and with B in mind: the German made Arara 37 & Juwel 33 were produced with and without the CTR marking (during approx. same time frame "was" my impression).
    @kerophile
    =============================

    * doh, i typed "Swedish models" and the male mind drifted:
    SxySwede1.jpg SxySwedecaroline-maria-winberg.jpg SxySwede3Optimus.jpg
    pic 1 has some meat on the bones :thumbup: but is only a thumbnail. Source: "20 sexiest Swedes".
    [i'm not a "boob man" but sexiest woman should have them?] gotta run
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
  11. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    13,171
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
    Hi @OMC
    I am working my way through the fog, towards an understanding of these CTR marked stoves.

    At the moment I think that the CTR markings might have been reserved for gasoline stoves aimed at the civilian, or at least non-military market. This would mean that CTR marked stoves could be quite rare, since the civilian market for such stoves would not be a priority in wartime:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/juwel-no-33-parts.10506/#post-498455

    The military had their own standards Authority and procurement organisation so had no need for the CTR managed route and reference to the law in the parts listing leaflet.


    Regarding the years during which the CTR markings were in use.....From the founding of the Organisation in late 19th/ early 20th Century, until the end of WW2.

    “The CRT Standards System seems to have existed until the end of WW2, and the partition of Germany, when it was replaced by two separate Standards Systems.”

    However what we really need is the date at which a German law was passed saying that all gasoline stoves required to meet the requirement of the CTR classification Authority.


    What do you think?

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
  12. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,303
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    all, kerophile,
    from above: " 1920-1945: Chemisch-Technische Reichsanstalt (CTR)
    after 45 is less clear, seems CTR may continue 1945 - 54? "

    and I agree, you are right to the point
    with need for
    " ... the date at which a German law was passed saying that all gasoline stoves required to meet the requirement of the CTR classification Authority."

    along the same line, the years the law was in effect (begin-end), the same law may have applied to the successor with "CTR" being dropped.
    You have framed the topic, with the right questions, answers will follow tomorrow or year(s) from now.

    SveaS & gieorge I copy y'all as well as your on-topic and related content is appreciated. thanks all
    @kerophile @gieorgijewski @SveaSizzler
     
  13. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,760
    some known facts:
    - CTR markings/certification - came from german law
    -higher number - is 15
    - certification/number is belong to concrete design
    - objects - things use "explosives" (fuel) -> i expect - blow torch with CTR number designed 1936-1942
    - german law- thats time, give us - fuel type notification on tank "nur fur ...." - what We see on "GERMAN PHOEBUS"
    -----------------
    Wiktorin H42
    Kraftstoff-Heizkocher 1943
    there is no ctr markings
    1942 !!!
    What is the meaning year 1942....
    at first - winter 1941/42 on Easterrn Front - unexpected logistic problems
    to solve that -by AH was destinated (8 II 1942) Albert Speer, wich reorganised "All" war production - by simplification and optimalisation - and CTR markings disapired... as not importand
     
  14. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    13,171
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
    Hi @gieorgijewski . Great Contribution! This really helps studies of the CTR markings on gasoline pressure stoves.
    Thank you!

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
  15. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,760
  16. anfeng

    anfeng SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    Messages:
    157
    Hi@kerophile
    I found that juwel 22 and juwel 25 produced in the 1930s also use gasoline fuel. But they don’t have a CTR number
    best regards
     
  17. anfeng

    anfeng SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    Messages:
    157
    This was recently seen on eBay. It seems to be a simple liquid fuel heating device with CTR 11 on the bottom. We have one more CTR. Picture from ebay 996AD44F-F503-49BA-8A7B-9D90F49D79AD.jpeg 81BCF120-513C-4232-9F54-8898750D1AC6.jpeg F3E01D7F-F636-49FA-A8E2-A0AF5196AEB7.jpeg A93AEAD1-1E20-436E-BCDF-21AFF27F057B.jpeg 62412574-59D1-408C-9E5E-D9F3578B8A47.jpeg 82A37C9E-9E13-497E-BAB4-81342EF2E230.jpeg C9D3CB07-4A3F-4F13-81CE-5200D2BD6E0D.jpeg 59A99AA7-564E-4726-8BAB-8DF3F1008F4A.jpeg
     

    Attached Files:

  18. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    13,171
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
    Hi @anfeng Interesting heater offered on ebay.

    An Early Catalytic stove, presumably gasoline powered.

    KATALYT

    “The Sun in Winter”

    “CTR 11”

    “Follow the Instructions”

    “Otherwise there will be trouble”

    “Forbidden for living and sleeping rooms”

    The style of packaging and copious instructions suggest this is a product for non-military use.

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
  19. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,760
    :) as usual - "Yes, and Not"
    1 All CTR markings - quote Army interest objects/constructions...
    [​IMG]
    2 Above -"Reise und Sportkocher" with CTR...

    3 ilustration "1942 winter problem" - quote nexts winters too...
    [​IMG]
    is it military or civilian design? - joke...
    qote winterhilfswerk fur ostfront
    everything - what could helps was sended
    3 - How many germans (stricte) military heaters designs is known...
    for me two
    heizkocher 1943
    and czech cabin heater (two kerosene lamp in metal case, wall mounted) - quote vehickle sdkfz 251 maybe stug stuh - truck. After war produced that same design.
    and two "wood stove" designs...
    --------------------------------------------
    conclusion:
    is PT-1, PT-2, Shmell 2, Shmell 4, Odra - military designs? - No - but "We have proof" Shmell 2, Shmell 4, Odra was in use by Armies - and "We expect" PT-1 and PT-2 could be....
    ------------------------------
    thats - mean Katalyth - was in production to the 80-ties as vehickle heater...
     
  20. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,303
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    re gieorgi's " ... (8 II 1942) Albert Speer, wich reorganised "All" war production - by simplification and optimalisation - and CTR markings disapired... as not importand" THANK YOU

    Would that be the 8th of Nov. '42 or Aug 11 '42?
    Either way
    on one hand it would be sooooo nice to adopt that to explain fully (nothing "1942" and the some examples w/CTR while some same examples are w/o CTR). It seems to me that DOES explain, at least in-part, a c.1942 pause with CTR stamping :thumbup: .
    On the other hand many J33s "could have" been made in 1942, before simplification policies, in first 7 or 10 months of 1942... more than half of the year's production "could have" been full-on (incl. military). That said, it seems to me, it maybe more likely J33 production may have been paused (vs just the CTR stamping).

    That ^^^ with another factor maybe?, pure speculation: Allied / Russian pressure halted production in late circa 41 thru 1942.
    This may be but not necessarily from direct bombing or invasion... it may have been result of war time footing, supply lines interrupted etc etc
    [joke: a note given WW2 surveillance pilots "For any blast furnace making brass... bomb their ass!" ]
    -------------------------------------------

    I completed extensive review of J33s & 34s (Gustav's Dresden factory). My focus was J33 production timeline.
    That research is parallel to this topic. If & when CTR is better explained, the explanation will fit that tentative J33 timeline as well with it's MANY J33 examples within this same time frame.
    ------------------------------------------

    all, anfeng,
    THANK YOU. Your [OEM] KATALYT CTR 11 example is a new piece, it too will fit into this end result.

    re your "I found that juwel 22 and juwel 25 produced in the 1930s also use gasoline fuel. But they don’t have a CTR number"
    Thank you, yes this relates to an important detail.

    I have yet to see the 22 / 25 offered on same ad as J33.
    To date, my impression is the 22 & 25 preceded the J33 (it will be convenient if that holds up but it's not critical).
    Multiple sources put Chemisch-Technische Reichsanstalt origination at 1920.

    We agree 22 & 25 offered in the 1930s.
    I do not know last year of the 22 & 25 (to-date zero examples w/CTR stamp).
    I do not have confirmation for 1st year of the J33 yet. Impression I had was:
    J33 production began by 1939. J33 & 34 timeline is a WIP.

    Although CTR had already been established through the 20s & 30s.
    We, imo, should be mindful of
    A. kerophile's focus as to WHEN the law was passed requiring CTR stamp.
    B. take note of earliest examples, which is 1941 for the J33 IIRC.
    thanks to all, gotta run
    2850 views tags @kerophile @gieorgijewski @anfeng @SveaSizzler
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021