Inverted Canister Stove

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by Knotty, Feb 9, 2014.

  1. Knotty

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    I'm looking for a stove that works well with the canister inverted (liquid fuel mode) and can be adapted for use in a Trangia windscreen. Ability to simmer in this mode is critical. How does a Primus Omnifuel do in this respect? Other options? Dual or multifuel is a plus but not a requirement.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hey, Knotty,

    Well, I have an Omnifuel which simmers fairly well, but it wears a BernieDawg cap (first generation design, I think). I can run a test of that stove, compared to a stock Omnifuel, and see how they do. I think I've used my OF with canister gas, not inverted, though, but cannot recall how it worked. The Nova, again, with a BD cap, would be another good choice. Or, if you can set it up right, "maybe" the new MSR Whisperlite Universal would work for you. I've never given though to using it with a Trangia, but have two of those outstanding stoves, and like them very much! We'll be doing quite a bit of cooking on them at CASG8, and I'll be posting lots of photos and a report, too, after-action. I have used that stove with inverted canister gas, and it works like a champ. For what it's worth.... Good luck, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  3. Quietstove Banned

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    Hi Knotty,

    The Primus OmniFuel simmers on canister gas with precision wonderfully. The MSR Whisperlite does not offer a comparable precision simmering.

    Craig

     
  4. Ray123

    Ray123 Subscriber

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    This is a tough question Knotty. It needs to be a canister stove, able to work inverted, simmer well and fit in a Trangia windscreen.

    As a disclaimer, I have never needed a setup such as you're inquiring about and have no direct experience but after being at CCS for awhile I remember an old post of the Brunton Vesta stove.

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/

    It's described as simmering well and able to work inverted. If you have to hack it up to fit it in the Trangia the price is much lower then an Omnifuel. There should be some listed on that popular auction site.

    Cheers
    Ray
     
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  5. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    MSR WindPro.... Link

    Ken in NC
     
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  6. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark SotM Winner Subscriber

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    someone wrote:
    "The Primus OmniFuel simmers on canister gas with precision wonderfully. The MSR Whisperlite does not offer a comparable precision simmering."

    Knotty, I have no idea why this person would have posted that, as it is patently false. I have TWO MSR Universal stoves, which are part of the Whisperlite family, and they both simmer very well, indeed!! Note, I did NOT recommend the regular Whisperlite, as it IS a poorly simmering stove. But, that's not the stove I mentioned. I mentioned the Universal. If the person who wrote the above comment had ever used a Universal, he would have known that they simmer much better than any other Whisperlite stove. Those are the facts, pure, and simply. Personally, I would not hack up a Trangia in order to make ANY stove fit inside it. But, with the MSR Universal, and other stoves, hacking up a perfectly good Trangia is not necessary, as they can fit just fine, without damaging the Trangia. I wrote that I've not tried the Universal in a Trangia, but I know of some who have done so, and they report that it works just fine, and simmers nicely. Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  7. Quietstove Banned

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    Doc Mark,

    I misread your post. You are correct. The MSR Whisperlite Universal does indeed simmer very well on canister gas.

    Thanks,

    Craig
     
  8. shagratork

    shagratork United Kingdom Moderator, R.I.P. Subscriber

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    Well said Doc and well replied Craig.

    However, I had a look at the MSR Windpro™II mentioned by Ken.
    Looks good and the price is not outrageous.
    I don't think anyone here has done a review of this stove for the Reference Gallery.
    So if anyone has this stove I would love to see detailed photos and a commentary.
     
  9. Odd

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    Knotty, I've operated the Optimus 221 silent burner in one of the Finnish KAP Arctic impersonators - on InvertedCanister LPG.

    A 0.45mm jet was made up and fitted. Using the normal control key for throttling the power gave me both a good simmer and a good full throttle. The Primus regulator valve (on the canister end of the hose) was left fully open all the time (until in the very end when it was closed to empty the fuel hose). Initial priming was equally effective using gaseous LPG as it was using meths in the ordinary way... I could flip the canister within a handful of seconds after initial ignition.

    And as we all know the Finnish KAP impersonator is specifically intended for the Trangia T25. Just as the original KAP Arctic IS a hot rodded Trangia T25...

    I'm currently waiting for a small brass adapter from our friend loco7stove that will enable me to continue these trials, but now in my genuine KAP Arctic with its 207B burner.

    [The 207B and the 221 is essentially the same silent burner, the difference is in the fuel entry end only. No difference whatsoever in the burning business end.]
    /Odd
     
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  10. geneislucky

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    The Primus website I believe shows the current Optimus Vega canister stove with a Tangia windscreen. The Vega can be run with an inverted canister or normally. Gosh, it is half an ounce lighter than an MSR Windpro II (not that I am a gram weenie).
     
  11. BernieDawg Banned

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    I thought it might prove informative to see an actual MSR Whisperlite Universal Trangia conversion to perhaps better understand why Doc Mark wisely recommends the stove for this purpose.

    1391988606-IMGP8195.jpg
    Installed in a Trangia 25 and operating in inverted mode.

    1391988617-IMGP8196.jpg
    Full throttle in inverted mode.

    1391988522-IMGP8198.jpg
    Moderate.

    1391988596-IMGP8192.jpg
    Incredibly low whisper of a simmer.

    1391988531-IMGP8201.jpg
    The installed burner in profile. The height of the burner can be varied by how one chooses to build the adapter.

    1391988552-IMGP8205.jpg
    The burner and adapter mount removed from the lower pan.

    1391988562-IMGP8206.jpg
    The adaptor is held to the stove body by the MSR threaded spirit pan. The thread is 1/2x20tpi, a common size in the USA. The hole in the strip of metal that forms the adapter is 1/2" in diameter.

    1391988574-IMGP8207.jpg
    The clip in the foreground is what holds the one-piece MSR leg assembly to the stove body. To remove the MSR leg assembly from the stove body, simply remove the clip and the leg assembly slides off. Reverse the process to return the stove to original factory configuration. There is nothing at all destructive in the change-over. The Whisperlite Universal can be returned to stock factory configuration in less than five minutes.

    1391988542-IMGP8202.jpg
    The MSR Whisperlite Universal comes with it's own stand for the inverted canister operation. Most other stove options do not.

    Summation:
    Advantages
    1. True multi-fuel operation.
    2. Silent stove operation by design. No need for extra cost for expensive third party silent damper caps ($65-75 savings).
    3. Simple assembly and disassembly, less than five minutes to disassemble the stock stove and convert it to Trangia operation, same to reverse the process.
    4. The conversion is completely non-destructive.
    5. No need for expensive fuel line adapters from machinists like the KAP Arctic conversions. (save $15-30). No expensive Trangia bowl mount to buy.
    6. MSR stove comes with inversion stand for mounting to canister.
    7. The MSR Whisperlite Universal is inexpensive stove. $140 MSRP. Generally cheaper than an Omnifuel stock, and certainly cheaper than an Omnifuel with a silent cap (totals $215 or more). Generally cheaper than a KAP Arctic conversion. No need to track down spare parts or kill a stove to get a rare used 221 or 207 burner as with the KAP Arctic.
    8. Because of the Lindal valve in the isobutane valve fitting from MSR, users can choose to use a metal Primus Omnifuel or Chinese import pump with the stove in Coleman fuel or kerosene mode if they decide not to use the plastic MSR pump.

    Disadvantages
    1. Have to make, or have made, an simple adapter for the burner. Optimus Trangia adapters are too narrow for the hole. Trangia bowl-style adapters raise the burner too high. Good news is the adapter in the photos above is just a 3/4-1" wide strip of metal with some bends and a hole in it. Can be fabricated by most moderately skilled stove fanciers.
    2. Might not be the best choice for the smaller diameter Trangia 27. I've not tried that - those are too small to feed me anyway. :lol:

    I believe this is the most capable, simplest, least destructive, and lowest cost solution to a quality inverted isobutane Trangia conversion.
    The MSR Whisperlite Universal is the stove that I recommend to anyone who would like a silent burning multi-fuel stove if they are concerned about the jet engine noise of loud stoves. Buying the right quiet stove first, instead spending money buying add-ons trying to quiet a stove afterwards, just makes better sense to me.

    The MSR Windpro™II might be an alternative Trangia conversion stove if one had absolutely no intentions of using any other fuels than isobutane. The MSR Windpro™II looks like it might well fit in a similar adapter without too much trouble. I do not own a MSR Windpro™II or I would try it and see. The $40 lower price of the MSR Windpro™II versus the Whisperlite Universal is not that much savings. Most hikers spend $40 just to drive to and back from the trail head on one single trip. Let's please keep costs in perspective - quality gear can save your life.

    I hope to have a video up at my YouTube channel late this coming week (Feb 12-14, 2014 or thereabouts) that details the stove in multiple fuel modes and shows details with more specs of the simple Trangia adapter I fabbed up in about 40 minutes.
    Swing by and check it out then.
    BernieDawg Cinema at YouTube

    Cheers,
    Gary (aka BernieDawg)
     
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  12. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

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    Thank you, I can see those of us mere mortals could fabricate that adapter easy enough (and I will), but the credit goes to you, that shape, simple design and clever effective lock-in-place clips... Survey 100 guys for ideas, not sure a better solution would pop. You're not the average guy. Impressive as always. Great post, sound advice, really nice, thanks again.
     
  13. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Howdy, Dawg!!

    Outstanding post and report, my friend!! Well done, well written, and much appreciated!! I agree with you, that the MSR Whisperlite Universal, is a great, and honest, multifuel stove, and I remember back when Drew and Steve, of MSR, came and camped with us at Diamond Lake, and they did a seminar on that brand new stove. I told myself then, that I was going to get an outstanding Universal for myself, and did!! Now, I have two, and they are fantastic!!

    Thanks for sharing your methods for getting the Universal to work perfectly with a T25 setup. I'll certainly give that a try, and look forward to seeing your video on same, soon! Thanks, again, Gary, for joining in this thread, and as always, God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Mark (Ye Olde Doc)
     
  14. Knotty

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    Wow, lots of great info. Thanks everyone and a special shout out to BernieDawg for the detailed write up on the Whisperlite Universal.

    Last month I figured out how to make a clone of the DIMS adapter and mounted my regular Whisperlite in a Clikstand and Trangia. But as we all know, that's white gas only and no simmer (at least not w/o depressurizing the stove which is dangerous). BD's adapter certainly looks doable as well.

    I had shied away from MSR because I don't like the way you're left with fuel in the line after the stove is turned off. Much prefer Primus's purging approach but as BD points out the Whisperlite Universal can be used with a Primus pump.

    I think the Whisperlite Universal may be the best solution for my needs. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions and input.
     
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  15. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    "that's white gas only and no simmer (at least not w/o depressurizing the stove which is dangerous)."

    I like the older "Non-Shaker" MSR stoves.
    The whole setup can be inverted and pressure released without removing the pump from the tank. In fact the old "Field Maintainable" stove instructions stated that.

    I wonder if the shaker can be removed, and the stove perform properly. (I don't have a shaker model)

    Gary, that is another of your fine posts that (like it was said) us mere mortals struggle to keep up with. You again have established yourself high in my standing.
    Thanks,
    Ken
    I may have to get a Universal now.
     
  16. Pinky

    Pinky Subscriber

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    :shock: :clap:

    COOOOOOOL!!!

    That's a fantastic set-up! Affordable too! :thumbup:

    I never considered that the Universal could use the more durable Primus pump. It really does make it an appealing combination.
     
  17. Knotty

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    The Kovea Spider looks like a possible contender. It's a 4-season stove that can run in liquid feed mode. Nice and small so it should fit the Trangia hole easily enough. Inexpensive.

    Question is, can it simmer in liquid feed mode?
     
  18. theyellowdog

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    Hi Knotty, I have not used a Spider but the Kovea Moonwalker drops into a Trangia with no modification. You just fold up the lower parts of the legs and drop it in.
     
  19. Knotty

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    Thanks theyellowdog. As always, the question remains, can it simmer well with the canister inverted?

    By the way, the Kovea Spider I mention above is the KB-1109 as shown here in Hikin' Jim's web album.
     
  20. Odd

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    Knotty,
    my experience with operating stoves on liquid petroleum gas is that the regulating valve must be very close to the business end, preferably in the burner body itself. The longer between the valve and the burner orifice the greater the risk of a pulsating flame in low power (simmer) settings. This pulsation seems to be a result of resonance induced by the eruptive boiling in the gas generator part and pressure waves running back and forth in the (incompressive remember) liquid in the hose and the canister. The frequency and ferosity varies with several data; gas volume above liquid in canister, 'strangling' effect of valve opening, length of fuel line, flow speed of fuel liquid through the entire system, system and ambient temperatures, mass of hot metal in generator part (the heavier and hotter the better) etc etc.

    So, I'd concentrate on burners with the regulating valve in (or VERY close to) the burner body if hell bent on burning liquid LPG!

    PS.
    A canister end valve have one only advantage: closing it makes it easier to burn off the last fluid fuel from the hose when shutting the system down...