Lilor butane stove - quirky got quirkier

Discussion in 'France' started by presscall, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    QUIRKY got quirkier.

    IMG_5552.JPG


    That's it folded up, the burner screwed onto a stowage location screw and a keeper cap screwed onto the burner mounting threads.

    Burner mounted ...

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    Pot rests folded into position, burner lit.

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    Elevations. The base cradle is steel, red plastic coated.

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    An idea of the size. That's no in-flight catering Pinot Noir but the full 75cc's.

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    The control valve.

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    To remove/re-install the refillable gas cylinder, the connection to the burner has to be unscrewed first.

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    The top part can then be flipped up and over on the hinge.

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    It's the same cylinder with the same fittings as in the other Lilor butane stove I have, of 1kg of butane capacity.

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    That one (but with a lighting attachment attached) is mentioned in a retailer's catalogue from 1956, together with a fixed-leg single burner and twin burner versions. No mention of the subject of this post though.

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    Burner cap is a slot-and-twist arrangement to keep it in place.

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    The jet screws into the burner riser and there's a locknut.

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    Time for a brew.

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    Puts out some heat.

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  2. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    You do a service to these old stoves.
    :thumbup:
     
  3. Rangie

    Rangie Subscriber

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    Funky, the French designs really are a different take on things....

    Alec.
     
  4. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States SotM Winner Subscriber

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    @presscall how do you refill the tank on this stove? Did you refill it with butane or propane? I've got the same stove but haven't figured it out yet.

    Ben
     
  5. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    Good questions Ben.

    It's designed for butane and I stick with that rather than test the Lilor gas cylinder's projectile or leakage potential by gassing up with propane and the higher vapour pressures.

    Under the hexagonal cap at the base of the fuel tank there's this spring-loaded ball valve.

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    I take an O-ring that's a tight-ish fit on the metal fuel outlet probe of one of those bayonet butane cartridges and slip it over the probe.

    I warm up the gas in the cart by standing the cart upright in a jug of hot water, then (outdoors) and holding the Lilor cylinder upright, gas inlet at the top - sitting down with the opposit end of the tank propped on the chair between my thighs is amusing to bystanders - I poke the donor cart probe in the Lilor valve.

    The O-ring on the donor cart probe and the seal in the Lilor valve make the seal and the sprung-loaded probe on the donor cart pushes against the sprung-loaded ball valve and there's a gas transfer. About 30-40 seconds and the job's done. Three of those donor carts three-quarter fills the Lilor cylinder.

    Until I get around to constructing a refuelling rig (flexi hose and fittings) it's a rough-and-ready method that requires some concentration to keep the donor cart from tipping sideways and breaking the seal, releasing gas to air, but it works.

    John
     
  6. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States SotM Winner Subscriber

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    @presscall Very ingenious work around. Thanks for taking the time to explain it in such detail. I might give it a try myself or maybe I'll just pull up your photos whenever I want to see it in action.

    I've looked around for bulk butane but have only found the small canisters for filling lighters. I thought about filling the thing with propane. Propane has four times the pressure of butane and even though the Lilor tank looks pretty substantial I haven't taken that gamble (yet).

    Ben
     
  7. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    @z1ulike
    The cheapest source for me isn't a bulk supply but those bayonet cartridges, as here:-

    IMG_5637.JPG
     
  8. teckguy_58

    teckguy_58 United States Subscriber

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    @z1ulike

    Hi Ben,

    John's way of refueling his Lilor fuel tanks/founts is the best way for now or until he works his magic in making a refueling rig for this type of stove.
    I almost bought one of these stoves but the shipping fee was on the outrageous side so I passed.

    If you want to try out refueling your tank/fount and want to have a little bit of propane or LPG it is pretty easy to make your own 70/30 mix of butane/propane. The 8 oz or 227g butane bayonet canister is easy to refill or if you prefer you can refill a Primus fuel canister. Most people who use these types of fuel canisters have some empties laying around so why not try out refueling some of them. I do know you refill your 16.4 oz propane fuel canisters so refilling the butane canisters is the same process but quite a bit easier.
    s-l500.jpg s-l5001.jpg

    You would also need a digital scale. To figure out a 70/30 mix of butane and propane is just some simple math. The butane needs to be first then the propane.
    s-l5002.jpg

    Some adapters will be needed as well. I have the adapters you will need if you are interested.
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    If you look at John's post above you will see he has a BRS type of fuel hose with 2 control valves. This setup of the safest way to refuel the canisters. If you are interested in one of these BRS type of fuel hoses with 2 control valves I can get that setup for you.

    This is the cap which covers the refueling port. 1285704295-11.JPG
    This is from John's post and it is used just for a visual aid. I don't know if this cap has some sort of washer or gasket and if it doesn't for safety I would recommend a viton washer or gasket be installed and if it does have a washer or gasket it would be wise to replace it. If the refill port does leak the washer/gasket will seal the refill port stopping any fuel leaks.

    Ben, in the long run it is up to you on how you refill your fuel tank/fount.

    Cheers,
    Norman
     
  9. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    The seal's made by the sprung-loaded ball valve Norman, not the cap. There's a washer in the cap, but it's not the primary seal for keeping the valve gas-tight but it keeps dirt out of the valve. A speck of grit in the ball-valve would destroy its sealing ability.

    IMG_5638.JPG IMG_5636.JPG
     
  10. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

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    If only modern gassies had the style & je ne sais quoi!
     
  11. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    I think I might break open that Pinot Noir and make a toast to that, Ross!

    John
     
  12. teckguy_58

    teckguy_58 United States Subscriber

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    Hi John,

    I do see the what looks like an O-Ring which the spring loaded ball seats into, but I was thinking if that part of the of the refueling system failed the gasket in the cap would keep the gas from escaping which in turn would cause a major problem.
    I also see where one can unscrew refill valve from the fuel tank/fount. It would be very interesting to see what it takes to rebuild this refill valve. Have you taken yours apart yet? If you do please post your findings.

    Cheers,
    Norman
     
  13. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    I haven't had cause to take it apart Norman but I've constructed a better refuelling arrangement.

    The mount for the burner, internally threaded, on the stove top turns out to be one commonly encountered on the burner bell of Primus 71, Optimus 80, Svea 123's - 7/16" 26TPI BSB.

    In THIS post I restored an early Optimus 80 by replacing the damaged lower part of the burner with that from a scrap example, the top part lead-soldered to the lower part in an attempted repair by a previous owner.

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    Next step, use of a component from one of these bayonet-to-screw butane adaptors ...

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    ... the component at the bottom of this line-up.

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    I cut off the smaller-diameter threaded portion and silbrazed it onto the Optimus 80 burner part.

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    Here's the fitting on the Lilor that the adaptor screws into. The sprung-loaded ball valve in it has to be pressed down by the accessory screwed into it.

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    To achieve that with the refuelling adaptor I silbrazed an additional blob of silbraze metal onto the burner jet, enlarged the jet hole and drilled through the added-on bit, then slimmed down the jet (using a hand-held Dremel) to enable it enter the ball valve without binding.

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    Set-up for refuelling from a bayonet-fitting gas cart.

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    The Lilor had a light attachment originally. The refuelling adaptor provides a mount for a screw-fitting lantern - a small Coleman in this case.

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  14. teckguy_58

    teckguy_58 United States Subscriber

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    @presscall

    Brilliant idea John, absolutely brilliant!!
    I never considered refilling the fuel tank/fount via the burner port.
    With your new refueling setup all someone needs to do is remove the burner from it's port and then use your type of refueling adapter. Let's face it there are many of these buggered up burner valves so why not repurpose them.
    I knew you would work your magic and come up with something for this type of stove. This is a safe way to refuel this type of stove and looks quite easy to install and use.
    Now I do wish I had one of these stoves.

    Again John, a hearty well done sir.

    Cheers,
    Norman
     
  15. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    @teckguy_58
    Thanks Norman, the Lilor's certainly worth a try if you locate one.

    An advantage I've come to appreciate is that it's output doesn't fall off significantly due to evaporative cooling of the fuel when in use, unlike stoves attached to small canisters.

    I think that's down to a couple of things, the large fuel capacity for one and the fact that the fuel tank is horizontal in use, which maximises the surface area of the fuel gassing to air in the tank.

    That in turn maximises the volume of gaseous fuel available to feed the burner and the burner's requirement for gas never outstrips the gas supply, even when the fuel is cold and the vapour pressure in the tank is low due to that.

    It won't be necessary to find a scrap Primus 71 etc. burner stem, although that would be the easiest way to go about it.

    In THIS post by Tony Press he referred to a source of a tap and die for that thread size/form. A short length of brass rod of suitable diameter to be threaded with 7/16" 26TPI BSB, drilled down it's centre-line and culminating in a reduced diameter at one end (to push against the ball valve) and silbrazed to one of those canister screw fittings at the other would work well.

    John
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  16. David B.

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    I think fuel capacity is the main one. Evaporating butane takes a given amount of energy per unit volume. That energy initially comes from the butane liquid itself. If there's a lot of liquid, that means it cools off less (as measured in temperature degrees) than if there's only a little bit of liquid.

    It's why disposable those propane (a different fuel, yes, but the same basic principle applies) cylinders continually annoy me with their poor cold (or even cool) weather performance when they're 1/4 full or less, but the 120 gallon propane tank outside my home has never disappointed me even in freezing winter conditions.

    It's interesting that there's so many old French butane stoves out there. Any idea why butane became so popular in France so relatively early on? Even in the 1960s and early 1970s liquid fuels (mostly white gas) were still king in North America.
     
  17. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    In the UK butane stoves with a refillable fuel tank (on exchange at a retailers) caught on early too, such as the Wee-Dex (1949), Tudorcourt and Calor-Dex (Dexagas).

    LPG was in use in rural areas in both countries and I'm guessing the camping stove market arose from that. Maybe due to North America being an oil producer and refining powerhouse, the tradition for liquid fuels was stronger.

    John
     
  18. David B.

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    Hmmm, not sure if that can be it. Propane is a petroleum product itself, and is quite popular as a fuel in the USA in the (mostly rural) areas that don't have piped-in gas service. I have propane appliances in my home, in fact.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane#History
     
  19. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Propane is not a competitor for the backpacking market. The canisters to hold propane are much heavier.
    Butane versions are a competitor.
     
  20. David B.

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    True, but when people say "LP gas" here in the USA they mean propane. Is the "LP gas" that those not connected to gas mains in the UK and France burn often butane? If so, that might indeed explain how portable butane stoves took off early there.