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MSR Model 9 Older Style Pump

Discussion in 'MSR - Mountain Safety Research' started by oddball, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. oddball United States

    Nov 6, 2015
    The first MSR fuel pump is said to look similar to the one in this photo because it’s white with a square control valve knob and has an air tube extending out from the end of the pump body.
    @Metropolitantrout Link to post
    MSR White Pump On eBay
    Then a fuel pump selling on eBay in February 2016 was labeled dangerous because it did not fit the description of the white MSR pump with the air tube.
    10_crop.jpg older_style_pump_check_valve.jpg
    Left: Image from eBay listing
    Right: @hikerduane Link to post

    Another member is optimistic.
    And the new owner of the eBay pump tells a different story after a thorough examination.
    Solus L Pemberthy pump supplies 012.jpg
    hikerduane Link to post

    So, after seeing the inside of the dangerous pump, we’re told it’s a prototype never meant for production.
    Tacoma white pump, complete disc 392.jpg

    And once again, we’re told the white fuel pump with the air tube is the first one MSR put into production.

    MSR Older Style Pump
    Could the fuel pump in this photo, the one sold on eBay, be the first production pump manufactured by MSR? I’m not certain, but I do know the first MSR fuel pump could NOT be fit with an air tube because of the external check valve like the one in this photo!
    Solus L Pemberthy pump supplies 012.jpg

    MSR Newsletter Issue 8 March 1974 Page 4
    The article tells us the 539 pumps in the recall CAN be fit with air tubes, which means they all have an internal check valve in the narrow tip of the pump body. Production pumps with air tubes were manufactured after January 21, 1974 a year later than the first MSR fuel pump was put into production.

    The last paragraph in this article reveals an older style pump that can be exchanged for a new one with the air tube. So, there it is! This proves that the fuel pump with the air tube was made after the external check valve like the one on the older style pump sold on eBay. Fuel pumps prior to the recall could not be fit with an air tube, why else would MSR offer a pump exchange?

    And later on, returned pumps to MSR where destroyed for liability reasons and replaced with new ones, which makes sense. It’s possible Larry Penberthy kept these older pumps and stoves for posterity knowing of their imminent demise and found their way to eBay some years later.

    What would this older style pump look like?
    It could have looked like the pump in these two images below that sold on eBay. The check valve assembly fits over a stem on the outside of the pump body and is held in place with a retainer ring. An air tube would be difficult to attach to this pump!
    Solus L Pemberthy pump supplies 012.jpg 11_crop.jpg

    And then there’s patent 3,900,281 illustrations matching the white pumps sold on eBay. Wow, isn’t that amazing! Another indication the pumps and stoves on eBay could have belonged to Larry Penberthy.
    patent_images_01.jpg square_knob_patent.jpg

    Filed Patents
    Patent 3,900,281 was applied for in April of 1974 a year after the older style pump was built so how can this be the first fuel pump? Patents require comprehensive illustrations with thorough descriptions to protect the invention. It seems as though Larry Penberthy wanted to first patent a pre-cracking fuel device for a better burning portable stove in 1973 and patent the remote-burner assembly with detailed pump illustrations a year later in 1974.

    Patent 3,829,278 Filed April 20, 1973
    The first stove patent illustrates the burner assembly in detail (Fig. 3) with a fine screen placed inside the jet that eliminates clogging (Fig. 4, 5 & 6) as well as showing the separation of the burner assembly from the fuel tank and valve in Fig. 2.

    Patent 3,900,281 Filed April 26, 1974
    The second stove patent describes the older style pump in great detail (Fig 2, 3, 4 & 5) and illustrates how the stove burner assembly attaches to the pump housing via catch arm (Fig 5) and shows the threaded pump connection to the fuel container (Fig 3).
    Yes, the tip of the pump changed for the better enclosing the check valve in the pump body and adding an air tube for safety was a good idea but everything else on the pump stayed the same with minor changes to the white pump. So, why not use the older style pump illustrations to expedite the patent?

    You’re probably thinking this doesn’t prove anything and you could be right about the pump in question but I don’t think so. We do know the first pumps had an external check valve, did NOT have air tubes, could NOT be fit with air tubes, and was used in the detailed drawings for patent 3,900,281.

    Congratulations to hikerduane for taking a chance and being the proud owner of not one but two of the older style pumps.

    Another MSR White Pump Appears On eBay
    I believe this to be the prototype pump body that was molded with the long narrow tip containing the internal check valve that will be used in the white pumps from the recall.
    white_pump_no_pins.jpg DSC_1049.jpg resilient_seal_spring_2.jpg
    The check valve in this pump seems to consist of a piece of the resilient seal and the spring from the older style pump. The plastic tip was melted to hold the check valve and spring in place. And guess what, it works! This pump was from Larry Penberthy’s collection on eBay and it’s a good thing they were not destroyed because they give us a window into the evolution of MSR products.

    I hope questions have been answered about the validity of these pumps.

    The following members have been tagged for their contribution to the threads WARNING: DANGEROUS PUMP OFFERED FOR SALE!! and Another broken MSR white pump, and ..........
    @OMC @snwcmpr @geeves @presscall @shagratork @butthead @JonD @The Bird @Hazet @Etherman @Spiritburner
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  2. oddball United States

    Nov 6, 2015
    I'm not making the claim the older style pump in the post above is the first one put into production by MSR, rather this older style pump was manufactured before the white pump with the air tube.

    As a matter of fact, the pumps in these MSR advertisements from Off Belay and Backpacker Magazine display the Model 9 stove attached to a red pump not a white one.
    model_9_off_belay_10_73_number_11_pg_40_300dpi_mag_ds_2.jpg backpacker_12_1973_winter_page_88_2.jpg
    In case you don’t know, red photographs medium to dark gray with black & white panchromatic film depending on the shade of red. Darker red equals darker gray. A yellow pump would produce a light gray. Blue will reproduce dark gray but I can’t image MSR would use blue for a fuel pump color. Red makes sense because it’s a refined gasoline fuel pump and everyone knows red means caution and then changed to a neutral color like white. I’m just rambling because I don’t know.

    Known Pump Dates
    The only dates established within this thread are when the internal check valve was produced and the air hose was added to production pumps.
    1. 539 fuel pumps were manufactured with internal check valves without air tubes from December 28,1973 to January 21, 1974.
    2. Fuel pumps with air tubes were manufactured from January 22, 1974 to late November 1985.
    My Newsletter Interpretation
    The first sentence in the Newsletter reads "One pump with threads on the small side was matched with bottle threads on the large side where upon fuel leaked out." then the last sentence same paragraph reads "There was no other which had threads loose enough to slip." The last sentence tells me there was only one pump in the recall that needed to be replaced and the other pumps were fit with air tubes and returned to the customers.

    The Square Control Valve
    Because the control valve on the older style pump does not have the stamped MSR logo does not indicate this pump was not in production. Maybe Larry Penberthy didn’t want to spend money unnecessarily on a product until it gained acceptance. Who knows?
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  3. hikerduane

    hikerduane United States Subscriber

    Mar 1, 2010
    Northern Sierra Nevada
    Thanks oddball, I was not aware that Doc Mark had made a remark about me. You spent some time, researching this, thank you for digging deep. Doc obviously made a remark without checking my photos, which clearly document the end of the pump was not modified and not melted like we had originally thought about the used pump when it was offered for sale on the bay, the inside of the pump tube and the end of the pump under the check valve. Evidently I'm not well thought of by taking a chance on my purchases, using my discretionary fund. A couple of us stovies recently fired up one of my model 9's, using the virgin pump I won. I had to rotate the check valve washer, as it first leaked fuel, but held afterwards. We ran the stove a few minutes after photos were shot. A historic moment I thought.
    My intent with the original posting, which may not have been in good taste by passing on some remarks by the eBay seller, was to share info all us collectors, especially MSR collectors would eat up. Evidently not all felt the same.
  4. oddball United States

    Nov 6, 2015
    Yes, your photographs of the pump were excellent and I was able to compare your images to the illustrations in the patent, which are a dead on match.

    My pleasure, I enjoyed it. I read the information I have over and over and discover new things I missed or why one Model is different from another one.

    Perhaps your experience with the older style pump was why MSR changed the design of the check valve because owners of Model 9 stoves were experiencing the same problem with the pump.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016