OK, all you Optimus No.111 fans

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by OMC, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    3,236
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    IIRC "somewhere" on CCS it is said No.111 model began c1952.
    Link(s) would be nice, sorry I don't have it at the moment.

    Here is a '53 brochure offering the 111.

    @shagratork
    All, Is there plenty support that the No.111 model began in 52?

    I am particularly interested...
    >>> ... why it is that the 111 would not have came out prior to c1952? <<<
    ... anyone?

    It might be simple answer or answers, please don't hesitate to chime in.
    Not a trick question, not putting anyone on the spot.
    I do not know the answer, I have no idea.

    I will find this answer helpful. As popular as the 111s are, I thought
    I'd just toss it out here.
    thx omc
     
  2. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,453
    Location:
    N.E. England
    The No:111 was an evolution of the No:11 which in turn was an evolution of the single burner Campingo No:1. Likewise, eventually, the No:22 of the Campingo No:2

    1 > 11 > 111

    1934
    1.jpg



    1939
    11.jpg
     
  3. Ray123

    Ray123 Subscriber

    Online
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,109
    Location:
    New Hampshire, USA
    In this 1952 catalog it describes the 111 as the NEW camp stove developed by clever engineers. Maybe it was the first year it was offered. Without a time machine who can know exactly.
     
  4. shagratork

    shagratork United Kingdom Moderator, R.I.P. Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2005
    Messages:
    9,641
    Location:
    Durham, N.E. England
    Hi @OMC

    While I was composing this post, others have replied to your question.
    However, I will still post my reply to add to the discussion.

    As always with a question like you pose, we are often limited to the documentation we have on CCS.

    I have my own views on the date of the first 111 but I have decided to let readers make up their own mind.
    I have done the donkey work and am presenting it to you.


    An Optimus 11 stove from an Optimus catalogue in 1939 (Link).

    Op_11_1939.jpg



    An Optimus 111 stove from an Optimus 1952 brochure. Notice the words, 'New practical camp stove' (Link).

    Op_111_1952.jpg



    An Optimus 111 stove from an Optimus 1953 brochure (Link).

    Op_111_1953.jpg



    Now to introduce part of a photo from a Swedish - Trade and Industry book of 1945 (Link).

    Op_1945.jpg
     
  5. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,453
    Location:
    N.E. England
    The 1945 one is an 11. Also the 1952 111 - the picture is an 11 too. The 111 is so new they hadn't got around to doing a new illustration! ;) Just a bit of a tweak where the 111 lost the bold embossing of the 11.

    upload_2017-4-18_1-19-59.png
     
  6. shagratork

    shagratork United Kingdom Moderator, R.I.P. Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2005
    Messages:
    9,641
    Location:
    Durham, N.E. England
    @Spiritburner

    Awwwwww Ross!
    You have spoiled my 'Who done it?' Cry.gif
     
  7. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    3,236
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    Update I'm onboard with 2 comments just above so all is good but it's coming fast, my response here is to the 1st 3 comments, BUT no matter.
    ALL the info jives for what I see, as always an impressive smart bunch!

    Thanks Ross,
    Ray and Trevor my thanks to you both,
    The "NEW" in '52 is convincing.
    There is also a print code on last page that includes '52.

    Re Optimus "catalogs" which have helpful parts lists. We currently have a gap between 1939 and 1957.
    Trevor's offering of '45 Trade & Industry book indicates the No.11 (w/298C tank lid) is still present c1945. Narrowing documentation gap for the beginning of the 111 to: some time after 1945 -to- 1952 target, the '52 brochure.

    SO, c1952 can all jive, '52 brochure may stand alone as "'52" piece but we can go w/that.
    Fwiw I'm unaware of contradictory info as well(so far so good).

    (Status is c1952, depth of this info came fast and is "new" to me.
    Note to self, confidence level? that 111 brochure was not also printed earlier? Nothing indicates it came out any earlier. We have however seen Optimus rehash same info on multiple releases).
    thx again omc
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  8. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,453
    Location:
    N.E. England
  9. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    3,236
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    Thanks again and done for now.

    I have no expectation if additional No.111 details post 1945 - 52 might emerge, or not (supporting '52 beginning -or- OP question).
    Along with my thinking that way, will we ever fully grasp timeline topics?
    yes and no
    I accept both yes and no and recently accept that new disruptive details are likely to emerge possibly very late, regardless of how many i's were dotted, T's were crossed and how many agreed. As such I can view a completed timeline as done... done for now. Still, I have interest in better understanding sequence/development and, subsequently, year ranges.

    Re yes, it is inevitable that we will refer to timelines with tighter and tighter year ranges. Stovies interested in stove maker history and defining model timelines are in the minority (some take exception to it as minutiae).

    As months pass, more manufacturer catalogs are posted and .
    especially re popular stove models: as more examples post, w/each one if it differs slightly from the others, we learn new (sequence) details which begin to develop approx. timelines. Having quantities of examples to collate is relatively new. A dwarf like me only sees such things "..by standing on the shoulders of giants" before me.
    appreciative stove history enthusiast, thanks again omc
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  10. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    3,236
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    OLD THREAD, discussion:
    I did happen to just notice a couple 111B tidbits:

    I was unaware that the 111B might have WARNING LABEL re petrol (gasoline).
    I can only guess it is same label used on 8R, 123R discussed here.

    A repainted 111B was "just" offered on ebay for a below market price (hint hint, 111 fans) which drew my attention to it's WARNING label.
    A review of 111s in gallery, with 111b in title, indicates use of the warning label on 111B is scarce, I did find one (unless neither are original?).

    My initial thought is the use of the label is appropriate and one might expect it would have been in-place much more often (as they are on the 123R, 8R).

    2nd tidbit: with petrol criticisms and warnings common (including on CCS as of late).
    I was surprised to see a British Army 111B. (unless that's not original).
    thx omc
     
  11. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,551
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
    Hi OMC interesting topic.
    The British Army obviously used Optimus 111 stoves, but I’m unsure of their status, as they do not appear to have been adopted into the numbering system we are familiar with. The majority of the ex-British military Op.111 stoves I have seen have been 111C models:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/op-111-hiker-ex-british-military.38163/


    However here is a link to an ex-Military Op.111b that I have:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/optimus-111b-previous-custodian-owner.27879/

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
  12. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,551
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
    Hi @OMC. You raised the question about the date of introduction of the Op.111 stove by Optimus.

    You must remember that the World was at war from 1939 to 1945. By the end of that period most of the non-Neutral contries of Europe were in ruins, their populations starving, and their economies bankrupt.

    Sweden had been Neutral during WW2 but they had been subject to severe shortages of imported materials and even their Industies took several years to recover.

    The Swedish Industries had to find markets for their products. Their traditional markets, with the exception of the US were broke and had monetary exchange controls and import bans in place.

    In the UK the situation regarding stoves, was that their import was banned until 1952.

    The point I am making is that even if Sweden could have introduced the Op.111 in 1945, they didn’t have customers.

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  13. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,551
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
     
  14. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    3,236
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    Thank you Kerophile,
    Work ran late, I just finished.
    It's been a hard day's night (& not over yet, really).
    I read through your input, excellent x 3. I'll have to take another look when I get a chance.
    thx again omc
     
  15. Garth

    Offline
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Messages:
    460
    Interesting they say 111 burns white spirit or kero without a burner change why then the 111 b which burns only white spirit was it a cheaper model?
     
  16. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2013
    Messages:
    6,093
    Location:
    Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
    @kerophile & @OMC

    There were import restrictions in Australia after WWII that affected things like lanterns and stoves.

    Tony
     
  17. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,551
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
  18. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    3,236
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    I'm again in time crunch and there's a lot to consider above, to your credit kerophile,

    The 111 (and all stoves) is small piece of massive crippling impact that wars had on manufacturing & distribution. This detail, for myself, I credit you and other members for enlightening me on this years ago (prior to that I was unaware. I seek more such detail ever since).
    ---
    Now with multiple examples supportive that roarer 111B was military "issue" (examples representative of 111Bs spanning considerable # of years). This while also issuing the silent multi-fuel 111s.

    I now have no doubt, but that is why I posted and (still) surprised by this.
    Garth's question "but why" is at play there-in as well, why the 111B? with multi-fuel 111s on hand: was it maybe the roarer of 111B? … are there operations where petrol fuel option was most practical? *Cold?
    With 111B petrol risk managed, were there British personnel that preferred the performance of the petrol 111B?
    *I understand kerosene is used in coldest temps on the planet but white gas / naptha also has the "works well in the cold" characteristic.

    In another recent post you pose a British Military 111 question.
    It is not an easy question because
    you've already researched it and so far the answer has eluded you.
    You provide relevant details to consider, all good.
    Your related question is: "What does the Identifier AT/07/17 mean? Perhaps @Trojandog, @loco7stove and other knowledgeable ex-Military Brits could comment?"

    Eventually feedback there may shed light on how it is the same "ID"
    AT/07/28
    is stenciled onto cases of different 111 models, issued, spanning several years.

    It is great that this 111 discussion has gone beyond my latest [petrol] warning label observation.
    There are several labels involved w/these military examples, not all clearly shown, that labeling could further enlighten as well.
    thank you omc
    @kerophile
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  19. Trojandog

    Trojandog United Kingdom Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,291
    Location:
    East Sussex
    It should be remembered that just because a British Army unit had civilian pattern items, they were not classed as or used as military equipment. Adventurous Training is a big thing in the British Forces - it develops leadership skills, tests soldiers endurance, navigation, planning, logistics etc. Pretty much every Army unit had an Adventurous Training store controlled by the QM's staff. This contained civilian equipment. I was CQMS of my unit in Garmany and the Adventurous Training store contained Coleman Peak1 stoves, Trangias, Berghaus and Karrimor rucksacs, North Face sleeping bags, Vango tents, Berghaus clothing etc... It was often an oddball mix, partly as a security measure so that soldiers didn't stand out when mixed with civilian hikers, climbers, kayakers and such like. These stores were never issued to soldiers long term, they were pool items to be signed out as required.

    'AT' almost certainly refers to Adventurous Training and is the stores reference for that stove. Civilian items don't carry NATO Stock Numbers so the QM's staff would create their own accounting system.

    So, the marking is probably:

    AT = Adventurous Training
    07 = Cooking equipment
    28 = Stoves

    or

    AT = Adventurous Training
    07 = Stoves
    28 = The unit's 28th stove

    Something like that anyway :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  20. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,551
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland