Phoebus No.30

Discussion in 'Phoebus' started by DaveC, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. DaveC

    DaveC Subscriber

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    I was surprised to find this example (which arrived today) complete with original tin, wind shield, spanner, pack of prickers and spirit bottle. The original instruction leaflet was also included. Judging by the hard plastic spirit bottle I think it dates from the 1950s. I think it has had little use but the tin has suffered from being stored. The base is stamped B 6. Could this be a date reference? After a day spent cleaning and servicing it works fine.

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  2. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hi @DaveC . What a nicely prepared example of this excellent stove. It would be good if you would provide some additional photos of the box as it might help with a date estimate. I am inclined to agree with your estimate of the 1950s.....

    You mentioned the B6 stamp on the base of the fuel tank, and asked if it could be date stamp. I think not, as like many stove manufacturers, Phoebus stoves were not date stamped.

    I did have a Phoebus 30 a few years ago and ot has an O 4 marking on the tank base:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/sad-tale-of-phoebus-no-30.32401/

    Thanks for posting.

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
  3. DaveC

    DaveC Subscriber

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    Here are some pics of the tin. As you can see the top suffered badly.
    Dave

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  4. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hi @DaveC . Thanks for the prompt service!
    Your tin looks to be in better condition than this one:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/phoebus-no-30-1930s-1950s.10656/

    However, they look very similar. What do you think?

    Please will you photograph the lighthouse logo on the top of the stove tank? This might help date the stove.

    If you read this thread there is some discussion about dating Phoebus No.30 stoves:

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/phoebus-30-from-1930s.39656/#post-415549

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  5. DaveC

    DaveC Subscriber

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    The lighthouse logo appears twice on the top of the stove. Here are the pics.
    Dave

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  6. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hi @DaveC thanks for the photos of the logos on the tank.
    We seem to have a mystery here. The lighthouse emblem on your stove seems to be pre 1945 :

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/phoebus-17.33723/#post-344758

    However, the swing tag attached to the stove has a later form of the ligthouse emblem, so perhaps it was added later?

    Similary the plastic spirit flask (which also has the later form of the lighthouse logo) would not have been available in 1945 or earlier, perhaps late 1950s or 1960s at the earliest?

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  7. DaveC

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    That is strange. I bought it on eBay. The seller does not specialize in stoves. He stuff for sale is quite diverse....from silver chains to deer antlers so I would think that is exactly as he acquired it. Perhaps a view of the back of the label might help.
    Dave

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  8. DaveC

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    Another thought - I have the instructions which came with the stove and have posted them under "instructions". They are on pink A4 paper. I cannot see a reference number/date.
    Dave
     
  9. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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  10. DaveC

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    A mystery indeed. I suppose it is conceivable that the stove was made just after the war using tanks that were "in stock" bearing the old logo and then eventually sold with the later label and spirit bottle. The tin is certainly reminiscent of the smaller 1952 Primus 96 tin in style. This is the seller's advert pic.
    Dave

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  11. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hi, a lovely stove and interesting observations about some of the items in the outfit. It is noticeable that the pricker pack also has the later form of the Lighthouse logo.
    Perhaps @Radler would like to comment on the dating features.

    Best Refards,
    Kerophile.
     
  12. DaveC

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    You're right, I hadn't noticed that. In the sellers photo you will notice that the spiirit bottle cap has no red insert. The tin had a piece of cardboard in the bottom which was cut to size and when I removed that I found this little red disc with a small hole in it. It fitted the bottle cap perfectly so I assumed that is where it belonged although I can't imagine it's purpose. It certainly is a nice stove and I am over the moon at having found it.
    Dave
     
  13. DaveC

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    I did a bit more research on the logo and I'm wondering if the earlier and later dates are correct. This is the logo on the last page of the French 1934 catalogue (from the forum info). It seems this was used pre war. Could this mean the logo on my stove is the newer and not the older logo?
    Dave

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  14. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hi, it could well be. The provenance of the logo, on a dated catalogue is valuable. It would be good if CCS Member, Radler will comment since he is the one who first described the development of the Phoebus logo.

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
  15. Lennart F Norway

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    There are some vintage shop owners that answered me obout mismatching stove parts - "I got some stoves and parts in mixed boxes and just put it together as it seemed to fit without a closer look to sell easier"!
    I've been used to buy 2 or 3 stoves in order to mate the parts as correctly as possible on one of them.
     
  16. ROBBO55

    ROBBO55 Subscriber

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    @kerophile

    G'day @DaveC Nice stove. Congratulations. :thumbup:

    I know very little about Phoebus stoves but here are my observations.

    There appear to be three different trademark logos here.

    This one appears on paperwork in the "Reference Library" from 1927 onwards and probably didn’t change until after 1945.
    1934.jpg

    This one on the stove is pre 1945 to me the serifs are not very pronounced but I could be wrong and it could be pre German occupation of Austria.
    stove.jpg

    I believe this logo is post 1945.
    label.jpg

    I can’t see this version of the tin decoration shown in the 1930’s catalogues in the "Reference Library" but it is seen in this advertising (there is no date). The add also shows the 625 with a green square green tin. https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/phoebus-card-sign.393/

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/phoebus-n°-625.36229/

    So ,The stove and prickers are pre 1945 and the other components are post 1945.

    It could be a transition stove using up components or bits’n’pieces thrown together by a seller???

    But it's only my opinion. :lol::lol::lol::lol:
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  17. DaveC

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    Many thanks gents for your responses. Back in the 70s I bought "new" old stock tins and spares for a couple of my stoves from a company called City Hardware in London. Perhaps this is a similar scenario, who knows. Either way, at £20.00 it was a bargain, especially as it runs beautifully.....after replacing washers and servicing. I should mention that it had obviously been used but not for a long time as there was no trace or smell of paraffin in the tank.
    Dave
     
  18. DaveC

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    Good news - I was trolling through some images of my Phoebus 30 and came across this Japanese collectors site/post from 2010. I think this proves that my stove and accessories at least belong together - even down to the spirit bottle and prickers. I wish mine was as good as that. It is a lovely example. I have translated some of the text/comments which look a bit odd but that could be down to the translator. The link to the site is ........
    https://harerubeya.naturum.ne.jp/e1055829.html
    Dave

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  19. Radler Switzerland

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    Hello Dave,
    Had I seen the stove only, I had no doubt, it was made before 1938, the logo is quite clear. It's not the primitive version of the lighthouse seen on the Phoebus No. 1 and 5 after the war.

    The tin box I have never researched about, but this label,
    Phoebus Logo Screenshot - 15.02.2019 - 19:43:20.jpg
    a masterpiece of Bauhaus style design, was used long before the war and afterwards as well. It was used to label the cardboard boxes in which the stoves were sold in the shop. The stove model was printed in the beam with a drawing, name and codeword (for telegraphic use). I own one for a "Phoebus No. 1 Codeword ferro" (steel tank).

    You may research yourself in the catalogues, if a tin box with this design was made in the thirties, I don't know.

    The tin box design is also a brilliant adaptation of Bauhaus style to the old style of stove-boxes as we know them from old Phoebus stoves. The box style would fit well to the time before 1938, but we have no prove until now, if it was made before the war.

    About the swing tag: In the CCS documentation you can find one here:
    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/phoebus-swing-tag-1960.547/ It is said, to be from 1960.

    The plastic can is from the late fifties or sixties. It has a remarkable resemblance with this PETROMAX spirit can:
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    The PETROMAX can was made for priming pressure lamps with the same name. It has a inserted bottom and a spout and gives 3-4 ml (the volume between the two bottoms) of fuel when toppled. The spout has no lid and in the lid of the flask there is a air-hole. I use this can daily at home, it is quite handy, but of course not usable for touring. My impression is, your flask came out of the same machine (in Germany). A modified model without spout and inserted bottom, but you can see the groove for it.
    I bought some of these spirit cans from Swiss Army surplus.

    The spanner is a new model, the old versions were die-formed, not flat.

    Now we need some historic knowledge.

    The former "Metallwarenfabrik Josef Rosenthal" in Vienna was a old Jewish enterprise. After 1938, when Austria became part of the German Reich, Jews were no longer allowed to lead or own a business, even the employment of Jews was restricted. The company, now under the name "Phoebus-Werke AG" (not as obvious Jewish as "Rosenthal") survived in a very reduced size only.

    In 1940 the use and trade of brass, copper, kerosene, petrol and many other materials was under strict rationing, Phoebus adapted products and production and replaced brass with Bakelite or steel. In 1942 Phoebus Werke AG was rated officially as "a small company with only 400 000 S capital stock", which may be not much more than the value of their building in Vienna.

    In 1945 Vienna was parted by the Allies into four sectors. Phoebus Werke AG was in the Russian sector and all production under Russian rules until 1955. Probably the Phoebus Werke was part of the USIA, a Soviet trust of more than 300 Austrian companies.

    In the destroyed Europe in the two winters of 1945/46 and 1946/47 many thousands of people died of starvation and cold. In the Russian occupied sector of Vienna Phoebus produced the most needed goods to survive: stoves for cooking, kerosene lamps, blowlamps for construction, no luxury for annoyed consumers.

    Now have a look to this poster:
    [​IMG]

    The square tin box of a PHOEBUS 625 is prove, the poster can't be older than from 1948. And what see you in front? A perfect remake of the old PHOEBUS No. 30 with a tin! I think, the poster can be dated in the time after the occupation, 1955 or later. During the occupation there was no time for luxury.

    The Phoebus No. 625 in the green/yellow square box was made under Russian rules for civil use. I have seen the first one about 1949 when some workers on a construction ground prepared a warm meal on it.
    The box is well made, very good artwork, but very simple: a green lacquered box and one yellow print on it. The earlier version was a yellow lacquered box with one green print on it.
    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/phoebus-625.8909/
    The earliest version of the box was a simple round tin box with a paper wrapper around (1946): classiccampstoves.com/threads/phoebus-n°-625.36229/

    If we now compare the tin of the Phoebus No. 30, we see a tinned box with a transparent lacquer for gold, then a print with white, one with yellow, one with red, one with black colour. In my opinion, this is a luxurious artwork far beyond the possibilities during the years of the occupation. And in a planned economy it had just been unreasonable to make such an effort.

    The last question is, why do we not have the "ugly" lighthouse logo stamped into the brass tank? My two answers are: the stove no.30 was not in production during occupation time, or the old tools were still good enough to be used for a few luxury stoves. No need to make the effort for a new tool until after 1955.

    As long as we don't have a Phoebus No.30 with the "ugly" logo we don't know.
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    Conclusion: The stove, the box, the tool, the swing tag fit together and are very probably made after 1955.

    I hope, the very nice stove will please you even more, with some historical knowledge.

    Best regards
    Radler
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  20. Radler Switzerland

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    @DaveC
    I see you have made a new post while I was writing. We came to the same result! Good!
    You could give a link to Japanese collector. He may be interested in history.

    Radler