Porta-Flame

Discussion in 'Other Brands' started by z1ulike, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States SotM Winner Subscriber

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    This is a Porta-Flame stove made by Blu-Burn-R Products Inc. of Monroe, Wisconsin. I believe this is the same outfit that made the Porta-Perk gas powered coffee pot. The original price was $4.15.


    Box.JPG



    Fuel Tank.JPG Fuel Tank Back.JPG
    Control Knob.JPG Flame Shot.JPG Stove.JPG

    Ben
     
  2. teckguy_58

    teckguy_58 United States Subscriber

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    Hi Ben,

    That's a nice looking stove.
    Thanks for sharing.

    Cheers,
    Norman
     
  3. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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    @z1ulike

    Ben that's a very interesting canister shape.

    As I seem to find myself on a bit of a threaded canister history mission I can't help asking, do you have a feeling for the date it was in production.

    Also reading your user manual it's unclear if the canister valve is self sealing, although given the style of stove it probably not necessary to replace until empty anyway.

    I do suppose this is date dependant but are there any product standards the canisters were built to and quoted on the labeling?
     
  4. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    @Simes @z1ulike
    It resembles a ‘Hank Roberts’ stove canister type but the manual refers to screwing a valve on the gas cart, which appears contrary to the Hank Roberts fuel inlet spike pushing through a rubber bulb.

    DE6A3652-84EE-409E-B1BF-6FA7FE677BD6.jpeg F42C132F-6286-414F-9B61-DF7446F11C29.jpeg

    Enlighten us do, Ben!

    John
     
  5. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States SotM Winner Subscriber

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    I would say mid-1950's. The Porta-Flame is shown in the "Ford Treasury of Station Wagon Living Vol. 2" circa 1958. I bought the stove on eBay and it came with the canister attached to the stove. You can imagine my surprise when I opened the valve and fired the stove up. Pretty good seal to have lasted 60 years.

    The canister is self sealing and it sealed up tight when I unscrewed it from the burner. The fuel canister is still about 3/4 full.

    PC040892.JPG

    PC040894.JPG

    PC040896.JPG

    Ben
     
  6. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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    @z1ulike @presscall

    I appreciate my questions are of largely of academic interest, but it has been a subject I've had some curiosity about for a while.

    With limited pieces of the jigsaw the whole picture I had was rather limited I now appreciate.

    A quick search on standards has revealed a precursor to EN417 a British Standard first published in 1975. Although this is applicable to the canister as a whole.

    As is the way with manufacturers I suspect that many had unique threads to ensure marketing of their own products. Hank Roberts being very unusual in this respect.

    The basic valve on your canister looks to conform to B188 dimensions over a!l.

    I can't immediately find a patent for the basic valve insert, Lindal don't appeared to have done so albeit it's referred to as a Lindal valve. Bit like 'Hoover' possibly.

    I'm going to regret starting this now aren't I. :doh:
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  7. teckguy_58

    teckguy_58 United States Subscriber

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  8. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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  9. teckguy_58

    teckguy_58 United States Subscriber

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    @Simes

    I'm assuming it is a Lindal Valve but the thread pattern may be proprietary.
    For now the only one who can verify the thread pattern will be Ben, @z1ulike.

    Cheers,
    Norman
     
  10. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States SotM Winner Subscriber

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    The Porta-Stove threads are 7/16-28 UNEF which is the same as Lindal Valve threads as far as I can tell. I don't have a Lindal Valve or I'd have tried it out. But I measured the threads with calipers and a thread gauge then looked in up in a Machinist's Handbook and that's what I came up with.

    Ben
     
  11. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    @Simes
    See Ben’s response, above. Looks like the concept/dimensions were arrived at back in the 1950’s irrespective of when the EN417 standard was introduced.

    John
     
  12. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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    @presscall Thanks for the heads up, and Ben for taking the time and effort to check the thread. :thumbup:

    I'll have to make use of my standards access, but at the moment, BS 3879 - 1969 covers portable gas appliances, with BS 3960 - 1966 covering canisters. They will have replaced previous standards I'm certain.

    It looks like the original design was Newman - Green of USA.

    http://www.newman-green.com/threaded-valves

    Lindal had a licence to make their products in Europe in 1959. No wonder I hit a dead end.
     
  13. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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  14. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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    And this.

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00631590

    Traded in the UK as Newman Green till 1980 if I read this correctly, although Lindal were the parent company since 59.

    Newman Green threaded valves are listed as their K series, one has to assume Lindal acquired total rights to the B188 during this period.
     
  15. Jeopardy

    Jeopardy Subscriber

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    Surely it is quite possible that the valve design might have existed for many years and anywhere worldwide before it was agreed that it should become a standard and hence designated EN417 which wikipedia says is a European standard

    regards
    John
     
  16. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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    @Jeopardy

    John, it looks like it was developed in the late 1940's.

    http://www.google.com.pg/patents/US2587040

    Not the exact Patent I was looking for but it has the thread profile.

    There the ensued a major Patent spat with the Aerosol Research Company running over several years.

    https://www.courtlistener.com/opini...newman-green-inc-v-aerosol-research-company/?

    The Lindal licence with Newman Green ran out in 1980 and they changed names that year.

    Newman Green have a B series valve range, now lacking the B188, which Lindal seem to have retained, probably much to their financial benefit as it's in the standard.

    A much better history of the valve itself, but it's still interesting that with such a connector that the camping industry didn't capitalise on it till so much later. Bluet pretty much dominated the canister gas market in Europe, and they were the piercable variety. There had been a removable alternative since the 50's.
     
  17. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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    Too late to edit.

    The basic assembly is designed to fit a 1 inch hole in a compressed gas cylinder for aerosol products, and can be just another component in an assembly line, just needs crimping on. The connector variations are there for how you want to deliver your contents. A new and expanding field I suspect in the early Fifties with adverts targeted at the housewife, spray nice scents about the place and hair spray. Most were the disposable type with the clip on nozzle, no need for gas cartridge replacement. Not sure if there were applications marketed then for the ability to replace a canister. Not surprised there were lawsuits in such a lucrative market, must have been worth millions.

    Like the British Standard it replaced, EN 417 relates to the complete canister, and covers not only the valve but quality of material for the canister and gasses and pressures.

    Thought I had posted a 417 extract a while ago showing the valve, can't recover at the moment.
     
  18. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    @Simes
    Truly, I’m in awe and greatly indebted to you for the effort (tenacity even) you’ve put into researching this niche topic. ‘Niche’ to many CCS liquid-fuelled stove fans possibly but of great interest to me and evidently to you too. Thank you Brother!

    John
     
  19. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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    @presscall

    Thanks John, but the links just kept appearing, sadly a lot of the logic is what I have to do daily. Eliminating the ephemeral stuff and making the links work.

    I embarrassed that I didn't do this a long time ago as obviously my assumptions up until recently had been totally wrong, I knew there was more to it. The standards never drive the design, which I clearly forgot, and it's been really bugging me for years.

    Still quite a bit I can contribute, that was just the headline items.

    I must apologise to @z1ulike for stealing your thread and not starting a dedicated one.

    @shagratork Trevor is there a possibility of tidying up my random mess into somewhere more appropriate.

    Thought the patent area but not sure it's quite suitable.

    Everyone else feel free to add info that you think relevant, or thoughts on industrial drivers. I've not looked at early aerosol canister standards which the basic valve was designed for. Nor the connection with CFC propellant development timeline. What was the Porta Flame canister usually used for, certainly not manufactured just for portable stove use, far too industrial.

    CFC's were banned in the 80's for household products IIRC.
     
  20. z1ulike

    z1ulike United States SotM Winner Subscriber

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    No apology necessary. It's been both interesting and informative.

    Ben