Problem with new Manaslu 96

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by Ridge, Jul 11, 2016.

  1. Ridge

    Ridge United States Subscriber

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    I mentioned this in Ed's post on the Stove Forum but wanted to discuss it further here. My new Manaslu 96 burns with a totally orange and noxious flame. So far I've pulled the jet, cleaned the jet, flushed out the burner with carburetor cleaner, then heated the burner up with a torch and blown it out with compressed air. Used a different kero that burns blue in my Optimus 00. No use, it burns just as orange as ever. (It does, however, burn great with the burner from said Optimus on it!)

    I'm thinking (hoping) that this is a problem with an over sized jet orifice? It seems there's nothing blocking the burner; the flame is strong but very orange and, from the smell of it, not giving a very good combustion.

    Tell me what you think. At this point I'm considering asking the blokes at Base Camp for another jet or two to see if that clears it up. Or should I just ask to exchange burner assemblies?

    What would you do?

    Regards,
    Ridge
     
  2. ArchMc

    ArchMc Subscriber

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    Does the 00 jet fit the Manaslu? If not, I would burn a tank of fuel to see if it somehow gets crud out of the burner before engaging the trans-Atlantic shuffle.

    ....Arch
     
  3. Wim

    Wim Subscriber

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    One of the main reasons (if not THE reason) for orange flames is, like you already mentioned, an oversized jet orifice. Is the jet the same as the one in your 00? Try to swap them for a test, your Manaslu might be fitted with a dodgy one. Jets are a mass product, so it does not surprise me there's the occasional off-sized one. If you need (a) new jet(s), give me your address and I'll send some over.

    Best regards,

    Wim
     
  4. afoton

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    From my memory, the threads of a 00-jet does not fit. From the same memory, the aperture of the jet in my Manaslu 96 is smaller than the one of 00. The pricker from a 00, do not fit my Manaslu 96 jet.

    Most of my old stoves, the reason for yellow flames, have been deposites in the burner, not the jet size. But that should not be a problem with a brand new burner.
     
  5. Ridge

    Ridge United States Subscriber

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    Thanks for the offer Wim, I really appreciate it. I think I'll call the folks at Base Camp and see what they want to do. In the mean time I might just run a full tank of kero through it tonight and see if that changes anything.

    afoton is right, the jets aren't interchangeable, at least not on mine. The Optimus jet screws in easily enough but doesn't quite seat properly and gives a horrible burn.

    Thanks for replies!

    Ridge
     
  6. Mark Layman

    Mark Layman Subscriber

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    Hello @Ridge.
    I had the same issue with my new 96. . An I cleaned and burned and I burned and cleaned. it finally cleared up after burning Kleen Heat through it. Cant verify if it was the Kleen Heat Kero or my cleaning efforts. Another issue I had was with the burn pattern. It burned more on one side than it did on the other. I used different jets to no avail. By the way @ArchMc the optimus 00 jets fit and also from a Svea 123. A little resistance here and there but I think its just tolerances not a complete different thread and they sealed well.
    Anyway, the uneven circumferential burn problem was cured with a little hand filing with a needle file. While changing jets back and forth I noticed that the nipple seat had a shiny spot on one side. It was not flat square. I evened it carefully and voila it now burns even like my 00 and 210. Trust me it wasn't off by much but just enough is all it takes. I learn something new every time out. It was a good day.
     
  7. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    @Ridge
    I’m responding to your topic now I’ve taken possession of a Manaslu 96 to investigate the phenomenon for myself.

    Comparison shot here of a Primus 221 of 1927 date (foreground) and my newly-acquired Manaslu 96.

    1720EE9F-6207-4F7F-80C9-718225543E68.jpeg


    Both stove tanks were pressurised to produce burner outputs approaching their maximum and with pots (kettles) on board.

    Both flame rings are incandescent as expected, but the Manaslu’s steel ring is much more so than the Primus’s brass spreader - getting into the orange/yellow spectrum.

    Here’s the Manaslu’s flame from above.

    45F17492-6666-4E09-8096-71BEEB8EE4BC.jpeg


    The flames before reaching the flame ring are clearly blue, and it’s on impacting the flame ring that they take on a colour approaching that of the flame ring. The variegated colour of the flame ring is interesting, a brighter yellow/orange colour where the flame impacts and a ‘cooler’ red/orange where it doesn’t so much.

    An experiment. The flame was extinguished by inserting a jet pricker in the jet orifice. This enabled me to maintain the tank pressure and maintain vapourisation temperature in the burner tubes, because I could quickly re-ignite the burner before it had cooled down. The flame ring, being of much thinner metal of less volume, had cooled down and was no longer incandescent.

    Result, blue flames above the burner, which soon turned orange when the flame ring heated up to yellow/orange again.

    F50223B0-5084-408E-BF6C-845379156C31.jpeg


    So, nothing wrong with the jet, nothing ‘wrong’ as such with the flame ring but it does glow much more brightly when in the burner flame than a brass equivalent.

    I think it’s down to the poorer heat conductivity of steel over brass. The four flame spikes are visually defined by what I called the ‘variegated’ appearance of the steel flame ring in the burner flame. The steel isn’t evening-out the hot-spots as happens in a brass ring and those hot-spots consquently get hotter and more into the yellow colour part of the spectrum. That in turn colours the flame.

    Well, that’s my take on it. It was useful to me to talk it through.

    John
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  8. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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    @presscall

    Have you put a brass flame ring on the Manaslu?

    Tony
     
  9. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    Next experiment Tony ... to be continued!
     
  10. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    Most interesting, though I don't have that phenomenon on mine (or I think I don't). I've only used it outside and the flame seemed quite normal to me.
     
  11. haknuts

    haknuts Subscriber

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    My Manaslu came with a spare jet. Or did I order a service kit with the stove ?
     
  12. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    @Tony Press
    I installed a brass flame ring from a Radius 20, fired up the Manaslu and took the photos below. They confirm the effect a steel ring was having on the colour of the flames.

    E1211AF4-9BCA-495D-9FAD-30185CCD8E0D.jpeg

    B7E5EE2B-A414-4792-8FA8-E15DE12F7953.jpeg

    B364DA9A-F1AD-4333-8836-2A18E801DA41.jpeg
     
  13. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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  14. ROBBO55

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    @presscall

    Thanks,
    that could explain the orange in some of my other stoves when nothing else makes a difference. :-k
     
  15. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    Very interesting indeed.
     
  16. Afterburner

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    Non-brass flame rings (often) cause discoloration. Worst ones are yellow passivated flame rings (& burner caps) that are sold at ebay (Indian made Prabhat). With those you get LGBT colors. :rage:
     
  17. hikerduane

    hikerduane Subscriber

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    Hmm, will have to check the cap on my Radius flying saucer.
    Duane
     
  18. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    @Tony Press @Ed Winskill @Afterburner @hikerduane @ROBBO55
    Another instalment ...!

    Though nominally ‘stainless’ steel, the Manaslu showed some evidence of oxide deposition on it. It was already used when I took ownership and I didn’t think of cleaning off the oxide.

    F8F5491A-DC76-4240-AEE3-7559610E0DD7.jpeg


    It occurred to me that it was worth checking whether polishing the flame spreader had any effect on the flame colour, so I cleaned off the oxide.

    F50E82F2-E632-4416-9356-F9A954A2FACE.jpeg


    Indeed it did make a difference, a more even colour to the spreader, an absence of yellow hot-spots and a consequent blue-ing up of the flame.

    55150835-92B1-46A0-9FB8-F2FA0513B758.jpeg

    ED22EDC4-3FAB-40DA-8D56-05B58BEF9BDB.jpeg


    @kerophile ’s often rightly said that the cleaning/polishing of the interior surface of a silent burner outer cap and the outer surface of the inner cap can combat underburning and promote better combustion, with blue-er flamelets and less incandescence of the cap.

    I’ve supposed that a roarer burner is altogether a more robust device, not sensitive to such matters as can tip a silent burner into poor combustion. In the sense that the burner burns just as hot whether or not the flame spreader glows yellow or redder, that’s probably true but if blue flames matter, then polishing the flame ring/spreader could well make the difference.

    John
     
  19. Tony Press

    Tony Press Antarctica Subscriber

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    @presscall

    I’ve enjoyed this little thread!

    A (possibly) related observation is that the steel flame ring on my Liberty burner started out giving a yellow flame. After much use, it became clear blue.

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  20. Marc

    Marc Subscriber

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    @presscall As I'm sure you know, there are different grades of stainless, with different levels of corrosion resistance. Can you try a magnet on your flame ring? The "lower" grades will attract a magnet, the higher grades will not.