Stove ethics question with a Svea 16

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by igh371, Jun 4, 2015.

  1. igh371

    igh371 SotM Winner Subscriber

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    1433434271-DSC02714_opt.jpg

    Well there's a nice old Svea 16 up to the point when you get your eyes focused! Then you see the horrible old solder travesties and the wrong legs, but nothing that can't be fixed there then.

    But open up the external NRV housing and what do we find:

    1433434504-DSC02715_opt.jpg

    1433434516-DSC02715close_opt.jpg

    Nothing at all! Empty!!!

    And at the other end:

    1433434632-DSC02716_opt.jpg

    Uh-oh - that looks suspiciously like a normal NRV down there!!!
    Why did I look :doh: - the stove was working perfectly well as it was!


    So, the stove ethics dilemma, tidy up the worst of the outside cosmetics, and pretend not to have seen what has been done inside? or try to transplant a correct original NRV and risk losing a decent working, if non-original, 'user'?

    A donor is at hand so at least there is an excuse to use the rest of this little post to reveal a little more about what should be found in an external-NRV Svea.

    But first, the donor tank after key-hole organ retrieval:

    1433435374-DSC02708_opt.jpg

    Now here are the two components of a Svea external-NRV:

    1433435458-DSC02710_opt.jpg

    And now close-ups of outer end from outside and inside aspects. The 4 cut-outs around the air pipe locator tabs are what is used for the air to get into the tank. The inside view shows that this end is countersunk to help locate the air tube from the pump on assembly (bit like a mid-air refuelling cone - except this one will have to be hit blind whilst wriggling the pump tube in from the other side - to attempt or not to attempt??? - remember there is still the option of pretending not to have seen any of this :whistle: )

    1433435476-DSC02712_opt.jpg

    1433435491-DSC02713_opt.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2015
  2. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

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    I look forward to seeing the outcome Ian - go for it!
     
  3. 1966dave

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    With the pump tube removed...it would be possible to thread a piece of thin rod through the external nrv hole...through the tank..and then out the pump tube hole. Place the air tube onto the wire/rod and reverse direction. That should line you straight into the nrv hole first go...then solder pump tube in...remove rod. Easy peasy...right??? :^o [-( :^o
     
  4. loco7stove

    loco7stove Subscriber

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    Hi Ian

    You do like making work for yourself , but everytime you look at it it's going to stick in your craw so i say go for it too!

    Stu.
     
  5. ROBBO55

    ROBBO55 Subscriber

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    A worthwhile challenge and thanks for the autopsy photos on the deceased donor. I now understand how the external NRV system works.

    Martin
     
  6. jbf

    jbf Subscriber

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    What Dave said :oops:
    :) :clap: [-o<
    john
     
  7. igh371

    igh371 SotM Winner Subscriber

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    1966dave - your guide-wire idea - excellent - could be the answer - worth giving it ago (it could be a week or two; but as Stu says, otherwise it is going to nag). Ian.
     
  8. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    Go for it... Good luck!
     
  9. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    ... In response to Ian's original question:

    My view on the ethics of stoves (and all other things to do with material conservation), is that all historical utility items that are 'in use' should be maintained as they would usually be 'in the wild'.

    What you have is a stove that has been fixed up with whatever was at hand at the time, in order to get it going and useful.

    So you now have two choices, both of which are entirely reasonable and ethically justifiable:

    1. You can keep the stove as it is and keep it going with 'whatever is at hand'; or

    2. You can fettle the stove back to its original configuration with the tools and skills that you possess.

    Both options are commonly accepted conservation approaches. If you really want to take it to the limit, you should 'document' (ie photograph) the pre- and post-fettle alterations, and some of the critical conservation steps you take.

    I have a similar dilemma with a pre 1911 Primus No.5...

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  10. kerry460

    kerry460 Australia R.I.P. Subscriber

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    Tony ,
    very well said .
    and i can only agree

    kerry
     
  11. Radler

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    Hello Ian

    If you keep the stove as it was found, you have a stove which can be demonstrated in action. And in addition, you will have an object which shows all the efforts, costs and pain given by its former owners to keep the precious thing working. It demonstrates, how high people estimated the things, they used daily. What a contrast to today's "buy and dump"!

    With the pump of the other stove, as a separate part, you can demonstrate, what was the original function of the strange thing opposite of the pump.

    For me, the signs of time are very valuable. They tell the history of a thing and this is more interesting than a renovated stove, which pretends to be a almost new one. If a stove has only little and non expressive traces of time, this may be different.

    Radler
     
  12. OMC

    OMC Subscriber

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    igh,
    It's a repair that taps into a high level of your skillset, for that alone, I too wish you luck and say go for it.

    Re the "ethics"? As shown it's a user stove in rough condition (not original). For that like has been done, I see a focus only to get it working (vs restoration).
    Now on the high end, for stoves closest to all-original, then preservation and restoration is the focus.

    Sorry for answering squarely on both sides of the fence.

    Tony captured 2 sides of ethics question, thx.
    Go as pristine as you want or for the "as found" category a definite +1 w/Radler "They tell the history of a thing and this is more interesting than a renovated stove..."
    +1 thx for autopsy photos.
    thx omc
     
  13. igh371

    igh371 SotM Winner Subscriber

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    An update on this Svea 16 saga:

    Original type external NRV mechanism is now reinstalled. Looks pretty well exactly the same from the outside i.e. still scruffy and beaten up, but does genuinely seem to be working very nicely now from the 'user' perspective.

    So how did it go?

    Well it quickly became apparent the solid wire of almost any gauge was a none starter due to the twists and turns I the link tube between the pump and the NRV. So switched to trying a length of Bowden cable - inserted through pump tube and out of the NRV end - led through tank and out of the tank mounted ext-NRV fitting - then used this as guide to manoeuvring the tube assembly into position. The only way to achieve this even then was to back-light with small bright LED through filler and one eye right up against tank to be able to look down the cable through the ext-NRV boss centre (tricky!).

    DSC02747redcd.jpg

    Then an, unanticipated, additional problem became apparent: once the end of the pump capillary tube is finally located into the tapered tank end of the ext-NRV fitting, there is no way to draw it through the grooved slot, nor, this being at nearly 50° to the pump end, is there possibility of exerting any effective pressure from that side. All room for further manipulation was exhausted :inpain:.

    The result was that it was not possible to get the end of the air tube anyway near far enough up the inside of the ext-NRV fitting to position the NRV spring cup and pip in the normal manner. Time for some lateral thinking! So what is actually going on inside now is that a small size (4mm) pip, without a carrier, is up against the end of the air pipe, followed by a brass tubular spacer and then finally that in turn is worked by the ordinary NRV pip, cup and spring on the outer side. All neatly out of sight inside the external NRV dome. And it does work :jawdrop: :happy:

    DSC02785redcd.jpg

    On reflection I think I was very lucky to get the air tube far enough in for even that final bit of jiggery-pokery to work. This is not an operation that could say with any degree of confidence would work again on another stove!

    Meantime the operation gave a lot of time and opportunity to see and contemplate how the original installation would have been done. It is very clear that the original assembly could only have been done before the tank bottom was put in place; but even then that final step in the insertion process must have been very alkward given the tight constraints on movement imposed by the alignment constraints at the pump end. This all seems to explain very clearly the reasons for the variability one finds both with the length of pump tube protruding from the tanks on these stoves, and for the differences in the length of capillary there is for the NRV pip to get purchase on inside the ext-NRV (which is why some are so very difficult to get new pips to seal on).

    I know the whole system usually works effectively in the end; but, given the tooling, labour time and skill and extra parts all required I'm surprised Svea kept these in production for so long! Overall I think that, in comparison, the Optimus design of external NRV was by far the better one from an engineering point of view, even though it didn't last in production for very long at all.

    Well there's some stuff to ponder over!
     
  14. igh371

    igh371 SotM Winner Subscriber

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    The 'new' legs are way better too.

    BEFORE:
    DSC02714_opt.jpg

    AFTER:
    DSC02780.JPG
     
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  15. BMurr

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    Reminds me of a restoration I did on my grandfathers 1950 James Autocycle. It was a heap of rust and totally seized in every way. I restored to as near to new as I could since it was unusable as it was but kept some of the handiwork that was utilised to keep it going. Such handiwork included a riveted repair on a brake shoe. Nowdays the brake shoe would be thrown in the bin and a new one bought. This thing had been on the road in 1950's and Ireland was in depths of a recession back then so you eked every little bit of life you could out of everything. I have a Optimus No1 stove (of 50's or 60's vintage I'd guess) in such condition too with bits of wire holding the legs on and big gobs of solder everywhere. I'll leave it as is but will try and get it working whenever I find time for it. I think it depends on what you are trying to preserve, is it the context that the stove was operated in or is it the manufacturers concept of what the stove was, either way both are in my view fine goals.