Svea 123 Research Project, prelim

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by exeter_yak, Jun 27, 2009.

  1. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    13,177
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
    Hi Doug, Check out the three Svea label posts I made in this section of the Reference Gallery:
    https://classiccampstoves.com/forums/svea.57/

    The Company name details are incorporated in bottom of the shields.

    Hope this helps.

    Best Regards,
    George.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2015
  2. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,970
    Location:
    N.E. England
    & I can confirm the 123U has Max Sievert on it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2015
  3. exeter_yak

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    429
    George, thanks for clarifying. Had to use an eye loupe to see it on my examples. Both corrugated box examples have Max Sievert on the lower part of the crest.

    Maybe I missed something but there are 123s with Primus/Sievert on the crest on the green labeled corrugated box ?

    Ross, your stove with the slotted lid cap is unusual. It has a recent chain and I suspect an Optimus 8 style key. I'm not sure how those features play into the scheme of things and it would not surprise me if they were all originally on/with the stove as sold.
    Here is a Primus 71 I believe to have been sold by Optimus. Note the key, chain, and lid/cap assembly. Also, earlier Primus 71 had a rounded top slotted cap, not flat like this one and the one in Ross's slotted lid photo.

    Pic.jpg

    Regards,
    A somewhat confused Doug :)
     
  4. Bom Bom Bom Bom

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,946
    Hi Doug,

    It wouldn't surprise me if, during the latter years of manufacture, Optimus would be increasingly outsourcing some non product critical components such as chains and keys.

    These are not items that require a massively close manufacturing tolerance and therefore a correspondlingly high degree of in-house quality control. In addition, being low cost items to produce in volume, they would lend themselves to large periodic batch orders.

    Optimus might also take the relatively common approach of derisking external supply by dual sourcing.

    So take the chain for example - would it matter that the exact specification of the linkage/twist might differ from supplier to supplier as long as the item is fit for purpose (length, end connections, and tensile stregth)? It's never going to impact stove performance and a customer is never going to return one because they didn't like the chain.

    Therefore I might venture that attempting to date stoves from non-core components such as these might lead to a worse form of stove insanity than might normally be expected? :-k

    Cheers, Graham.
     
  5. exeter_yak

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    429
    Graham, these might clarify:

    It is OK with me if a mod changes the pics to thumbnails :thumbup:

    This is the early Sievert Svea 123 ornate key and formed steel wire and plated chain. I have 4 examples of this type 123. The same key was used on Campus 3, but my sample Campus threes don't have the chains (missing ?). This key can be seen in the 1958 Sievert catalog.

    Pic1.jpg



    This is Sievert Svea 123 long key and formed steel wire and plated chain. This key shows up in the 1960 Sievert catalog, so the change occurred between 1958 and 1960. I have around 10 examples of this type 123.

    Pic2.jpg



    This is an Optimus Svea 123 key and twisted wire chain. I have around 12 examples of this type. The key is identical to those found on Optimus Model 8, which was superceded by 8R around 1952. The chain appears to be stainless steel. The same type chain is found on 8 samples of Optimus model 8R here, a 99, a 199, and the Optimus made Primus 71 shown earlier in this thread (which also has a model 8 key). I have 3 Optimus model 8 which have this same key.

    Pic3.jpg



    This is an Optimus Svea 123R key and twisted wire chain. I have over 12 examples of this type 123R. The trend continues with the twisted wire chain until the reintroduction of Svea 123R after Optimus production had stopped. On the latest versions they are back to a wire formed chain much like the early ones but much coarser (larger).

    Pic4.jpg



    For reference these are Primus 71 with key and stamped and formed chains from brass sheet, dated 1937 and 1946.

    Pic5.jpg



    This is a sample of Primus 71 key and formed brass wire plated chain. Examples of this type here are 1951,1952,1954, 1955 and two which are post 1963.

    Pic6.jpg



    This is a Radius 42 key and formed steel plated chain. It has links more like common chain.

    Pic7.jpg


    As near as I can tell, only an Optimus produced stove shipped with the twisted stainless chain and/or the Optimus model 8 key.

    There is still the riddle of how to identify the Primus/Sievert era (1966-1970) model 123 stoves. :-k


    :)
    ATB,
    Doug
     
  6. exeter_yak

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    429
    Ross, I am still contemplating your dating scenario B referenced earlier. It has merit.

    When I go through a photo session with various 123 stoves here I will look for more details that may have been missed.

    Thanks all for your assistance.
    Doug
     
  7. exeter_yak

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    429
    Hi,
    My date was off earlier in this thread regarding Model 8 to 8R transition. The 1959 Optimus catalog in archives has text additions on the model 8 page (changed to 8R with self cleaning feature), so 1958/1959 would seem the more logical date for the 8R introduction.

    Doug
     
  8. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,970
    Location:
    N.E. England
    Something about the Sievert black/white/red box isn't resting well with me.

    The date code for starters. Is it definitely a date code?

    Plus I did a google image search for Svea 123. I didn't like what I found - a Japanese site helping itself to images from CCS including our logo.

    But it did have this page on the Svea 123

    http://slowhands.naturum.ne.jp/e664953.html

    . . . and . . .

    http://slowhands.naturum.ne.jp/e710395.html

    Is than Stamford Connecticut printed on the box below Sievert? If so it makes me think this has got to be a USA only box so may run concurrently with different styles in other markets?

    When were Sievert based at Stamford?

    BTW - the instruction sheet shown below the box is stolen from here and was with a different box altogether so don't let that muddy the waters.
     
  9. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,970
    Location:
    N.E. England
    Yep, 1952 is way off.

    I do state that catalogue is likely earlier than the overstamped 1959/60 date.

    I have an Optimus price list solidly dated as 1958 which lists the No:8F and No:8RF - F for nickel plated but the old and new models were available concurrently in 1958. I've another example of this somewhere but I can't think where or what it is.

    It isn't unique, this old and new available together. Primus have catalogues which feature both the 70 and 71 together.
     
  10. exeter_yak

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    429
    Hi Ross,
    The plot thickens :lol:

    Thanks for the links to the slowhands site. His photography is nice. I think he may have something regarding 1966, but not the 'Optimus part'. I swiped his maker's dating chart, because it has a layout that is easy to review. Unfortunately there is no joy for you finding the site documents displayed there. :roll:

    The possible date code added to the box really only makes sense if you consider that it is an Optimus stove in the box. I had seen at least two boxed stoves on Ebay like the one I have here with the marking on the box top but they were pricey. I saved one seller's images(see below).

    There are five 123 stoves here in the Red /White box, 4 of them contain a long key type full texted 123 stove with a type 3 pentagon set screw in the lid, and in one of the four is an instruction sheet just like the stolen one you mentioned on the slowhand site, but my sample has this code at bottom left:
    252092. XII. 66.

    The fifth example in red/ white box here has the printed text on the box top, stamping removed on all but the tank of the stove, an Opti type chain and Opti model 8 key.

    All 5 Red/white boxes have Stamford Conn in the box printing on the bottom right corner of the front of the box. I wonder if this was for a Primus Sievert US distribution center.

    This is the stove with the text on the box I have in the collection here. It has a type 4 Opti lid (same as type 3 pentagon set screw but with vertical single cut heavy knurl typical of many Optimus lids. Text stamping only on the stove tank.

    Pic1.jpg


    This is the Ebay seller's photo, also with added text on the box top. It has an Opti flame plate, chain and model 8 key. I also have one of his closeups of the flame plate and it is Opti with downward grooves on the tangs, not raised like Sievert, and no text.

    Pic2.jpg


    I was experimenting with photo backgrounds earlier and took this photo. It is a transition model 8 in the 8R box. This one also has the slotted/ raised cap type lid as on your Svea 123 in the green label box shown earlier.

    Pic3.jpg


    I am leaning towards the Svea 123 stoves sold in the Red /White (colorful marketing ploy) box in the US as Primus/Sievert produced stoves, starting around 1966 if my instruction sheet text is truly a 66 date, and that Optimus used the boxes after the 1970 aquisition on into 1971. It wouldn't surprise me that you are correct in thinking some other style boxes were being used for distribution in Europe, especially if they have Primus/Sievert on the Svea crest printed on the green label, or some other Primus/Sievert detailing.

    What do you think ?
    Whew, this is tiring work :lol:

    Regards,
    Doug
     
  11. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,970
    Location:
    N.E. England

    Tiring but fascinating how it will come together, unravel a bit then come together even better! A time machine would be useful!

    The Stamford dates should be pretty easy to tie down, which will help.

    With Sievert on the red/black/white box we know it originally pre-dates the involvement of Optimus. I'm of the opinion the oranges & lemons box was Sievert originally before being reprinted with AB Optimus. A lot of these in the USA so pretty sure they were used in that market.

    So if Optimus were using the r/b/w box in the USA they were using it concurrently with the oranges & lemons box? And had resurrected it because at the end of the Sievert Svea era it had already been superceded by oranges & lemons?

    With regard to parts similarities & cross-over between Optimus/Primus & Svea - as production was shrinking rapidly in the 60's it wouldn't surprise me if Sievert bought parts from Optimus, the main player by now, especially post 1966. I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sort of relationship building in the lead up to 69/70.
    Conjecture I know but it could explain the apparent mish-mash of keys & flame spreaders etc. I think in this case nailing the packaging may give a more accurate chronology in the later 60's & early 70's.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2015
  12. exeter_yak

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    429
    Hi,
    It's been busy and I haven't touched this project today so hope to get back to it later on or tomorrow.
    I did scan the web for references to Sievert and Stamford Connecticut (Stamford Conn is printed on the Red/White 123 boxes) last night but did not come up with anything worth reporting.

    Found a sheet for the mini pump in one lmeon and orange fruit image on top of one 123 box and Optimus had an address listed on that document as:
    Optimus Incorporated
    1100 Boston Avenue
    Bridgeport, Connecticut 06601
    (Zip postal codes began here in 1963)

    Examined eight boxed 123 stoves with lemon and orange fruit image on the box top and there are 3 different printed text versions on the top flap:
    1. Made in Sweden (3 examples )
    2. Manufactured by: AB OPTIMUS, SWEDEN (3 examples)
    3. Manufactured by: AB OPTIMUS (2 examples, and these boxes have the yellow sticker denoting: with new cleaning device)

    There are some instruction sheets with a few of those 8 inspected stoves. Will scan instructions, and get some additional photos.

    ATB,
    Doug
     
  13. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,970
    Location:
    N.E. England
    I've dropped a line to Sievert in the USA to see if we can get the Stamford time-frame tied down. I'll speak to my contacts at Primus-Sievert & Optimus next to see if they can throw any light on the subject.
     
  14. exeter_yak

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    429
    I have another tack to pursue, the burner heads seem the same between makers. This points to outsourcing for burner heads by the stove makers. Will set up to accurately measure specific features on burner heads from different brand stoves and compare them. I got onto this tangent due to the changed shape of the 4 air intake cutouts in the Optimus burner heads.Wanted to see if it might coincide with ownership of the 123 product line, but now seems unlikely. Will follow through anyway.

    I don't believe Optimus helped out Sievert with their stainless twisted wire type chains and model 8 keys. The financial impact would have been minimal.

    Ross's quote:
    "So if Optimus were using the r/b/w box in the USA they were using it concurrently with the oranges & lemons box? And had resurrected it because at the end of the Sievert Svea era it had already been superceded by oranges & lemons?"

    I think Optimus knew how the 123s were selling in the US and that they were known in the hiker's language as simply 'Svea 123'. They were also likely aware of the sales imapct from books by Colin Fletcher and references to Svea 123. i believe Optimus also knew they had to scurry to keep that stove on the shelves in the market place or someone else could get a better piece of market share. Optimus was already selling many 8R stoves (among others) here and I am sure they were quite savvy on how to sell and market products in the US. The US market was growing quickly regarding pack stoves. My brother and I and friends were in that market at that time, canoeing, camping, and hillwalking in most of our spare time.

    To keep production going smoothly and maintain the ready to sell stoves in US I believe:
    1. Optimus used up existing parts
    2. Used the same Red/White Sievert boxes and instructions sheets to keep production and sales moving forward.
    3. Designed a box that was colorful based on present US market trends at the time (color litho on gloss cardboard), and used the typical US outdoor person's common and familiar name for the stove to be printed boldly on the box, i.e. 'Svea 123' . This would be the name of the stove that possibly your friend had convinced you to go to a store to buy. It is the name that most of my friends used for the stove, not Sievert, not Optimus, just Svea 123. I believe Optimus knew this, and that word of mouth sold just as many stoves as colorful boxes.
    4. Made changes to the stove that made production easier, removing text and references to Sievert (Sievert may have requested removal as part of the sale contract). Remember, the tooling is in the Sievert factory, not the Optimus factory so some things had to move, and quickly. Tank and windscreen tooling and punch and form dies needed to move to the Optimus production facility.
    5. Incorporated as many Optimus parts on the stove as possible to reduce time in getting stoves through production and to the market. The optimus parts readily or quickly available were: chains, model 8 keys, flame plates, in stock burner heads, tank lids, springs, buckets, and seals for pressure release system in the lid. (Note that the Optimus 123s have a different spring in the lids)
    6. Ordered more of the same basic instruction sheets with the Sievert crest and text removed after using up previous instruction sheets.
    7. Began shipping in the lemon and orange image box tops they had ordered as soon as the boxes arrived, and put stoves in them with the Optimus parts as per note 5.
    8. Ordered several iterations of the same boxes with at least 3 variations of the text on the box top.

    This may explain why the last of the Sievert boxes and all of the lemon /orange imaged boxes clearly have Optimus made stoves in them.

    I have yet to finish my second drawing of lids (it is the Optimus lid drawing types 4 thru 6). Optimus built stoves for the most part have the single knurl lids with more robust springs in them. Optimus is known for mix and match of parts after an aquisition as evidenced by Bryan's document on the models 96 where Primus and Radius parts were used, and in other examples. The mix and match ethic may explain some differences on tank lids used on the earliest Optimus Svea 123 stoves, and there is of course the lid replacements performed by previous owners.


    I may be able to glean some good information from books\ articles published by Colin Fletcher here in US regarding Svea 123. He was published in Field and Stream magazine as well. Will look into finding those publications and also Svea 123 advertisements in Field and Stream if they were used for sales promotion.

    ATB,
    Doug
     
  15. exeter_yak

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    429
    Here are some photos of 123s in the sequence I am suggesting.

    Boxed Sievert 123, burner heads have rounded end air ports.
    A1 and A2 have the oldest style ornate key and lid type 1. A2 has Sievert instructions 52092. I. 54. (1954) A3 and A4 have the long key and lid type 2. A3 has Sievert instructions 62092. IX. 59. (1959)

    Pic1.jpg


    Boxed Sievert 123, and 1 Optimus 123, burner heads have rounded end air ports.
    B1 has Sievert instructions 25092. XII. 66 (1966) B1, B2, B3, B4 have long key and lid type 3.
    B5 has an Optimus 123 stove with no text stamping except on the tank, lid type 4, and Optimus twisted stainless wire chain and Optimus model 8 key. The box top flap has a hand stamped code 1-50-70 (1970)
    Note that there is an Ebay photo of a similar boxed stove to B5 with hand stamped code on box top, (an Optimus stove in the box) ,earlier in this thread.

    Pic2.jpg


    Boxed Optimus 123, burner heads are mixed,with rounded end air ports, and squared end air ports.
    All have Optimus twisted wire chain and Optimus model 8 keys.
    C1 - Sievert instructions 52092. 3. 66., hand stamped text on underside of top flap 1-12-71 (1971), lid type 4, text on box top Made In Sweden.
    C2 - Lid type 4, text on box top Made In Sweden
    C3 - Instructions 92131 (No Svea Crest), Mini pump lid, text on box top Made In Sweden
    C4 - Instructions 92131, lid type 4, text on box top Manufactured By AB OPTIMUS, SWEDEN
    C5 - lid type 4, new style pot handle, text on box top Manufactured By AB OPTIMUS, SWEDEN
    C6 - Instructions 92131, lid type 5, new style pot handle, text on box top Manufactured By AB OPTIMUS

    Pic3.jpg


    Boxed Optimus 123R, burner heads have squared end air ports, both have new key typical of 123R, Optimus twisted wire chain, and new style pot handle.
    D1 - lid type 6 no top flap on box
    D2 - lid type 5, instructions 92155, text on box top Manufactured By AB OPTIMUS

    Pic4.jpg


    Boxed Optimus 123R, burner heads have squared end air ports.
    E1 - Lid type 6
    E2 - Lid type 7, Tank top corner rounded, instructions 92155
    E3, E4, E5, - Made in Asia, Lid type 7, Tank top corners rounded, formed steel plated wire linked chains, typical 123R key, all have newest non coded instruction sheets.
    I'm working on obtaining a Brunton version 123R to go between E2 and E3, and it would likely be identical to E3.

    Pic5.jpg

    ATB,
    Doug
     
  16. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,970
    Location:
    N.E. England

    The allowance in the Stove Reference Library which has the Instructions section is 200k per file.

    We may have to give some thought where to file this info as it is firmed up, as we have identification pictures, instructions & fettling (once the data's in for the safety caps)

    I would suggest centrally in the SRG with links to the other sections where necessary. I'm happy to help there.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2015
  17. exeter_yak

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    429
    Thanks Ross. I agree portions will have to be separated and shuffled a little.
    1. Dating and ID with photos
    2. Pressure release lid details and some run charts with operating pressure & temp data for reference.

    Additional Notes:
    Stove C6 had a sales slip in it from Vermont, dated Aug. 22, 1975.

    The boxes C4,and C5 have small text on the right side of the box SELF CLEANING printed on the arm of an individual holding a stove. It would seem that should have been the last in the series of that style box (containing a 123R) but they both had Opti 123. So all that is in contention is which of the series was last.
    C1 has a likely date code on the top flap underside so it seems first in sequence.

    Regards,
    Doug
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2015
  18. dsk

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Messages:
    571
    Location:
    Hakadal, Norway
    Back to safety valves, I took a 210 and put a tyre nipple Schrader valve? on the top, used a hand pump with gauge, and tested a 111 cap, first time it released at more than 4 Bar, (Stuck?) Later tests showed aboat 3.5 Bar each time. The gauge is probably quite unaccurate.

    dsk
     
  19. linux_author

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,855
    gentlemen -

    all these pictures of various 123s are absolutely *insane*!

    what chance does this mere mortal have of collecting *any* of these fine specimens if they're already ensconced in collections?

    :p
     
  20. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,970
    Location:
    N.E. England
    No problem - they made several more than Doug has & this was one Swede stove that was sold in big numbers in the USA!