The return of the Lipstick

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by haknuts, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. haknuts

    haknuts Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    316
    How far are you willing to go? (got carried away by that title :-)

    The Primus 96' lipstick may be tiringly debated here. However, whilst we are waiting for the soon-to-come launch of a reproduction series, I cant let go imagening a functional Frankenstick . That using fittings and adapters from the world of plumbing, cooling systems, welders, auto/machine industry, and topping it off with a 4,5 or 7mm jet.

    The threads on the lipstick is (or so Im told) M16x1,5 so that is where to start. There may be drilling, taps and dies involved, but the idea is to keep that lathe and bracing away. I do not insist it can be done, but I think that given the seemingly endless selection brassy thingies that are being made in our galaxy (..), it may possible be a matter of enough determination and perseverance in such a persuit?


    samples.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  2. kaw550red

    kaw550red RIP

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,350
    You have been misinformed. The threads on the vapourising tube are not metric. They are a Whitworth Imperial thread although a Unified Fine thread also fits

    They are also a bastard thread. That is a thread that is used on a different sized object than that originally intended

    Regards Bryan
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  3. kaw550red

    kaw550red RIP

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,350
    I dont want to dampen your enthusiam but I am now confused about what you are trying to do and you appear to be flogging a dead horse.

    If you are trying to make a vapourising tube your proposals will not work

    The vapourising tube as the name suggests turns liquid fuel into vapour which when mixed with air will burn with a blue flame. However the tube on a 96 is only capable of vapourising sufficient fuel to cope with a small apperture. The standard size is 0.23 mm. Once the jet becomes enlarged the flame turns to yellow because it does not get the right of air mixed with it to burn efficiently. At the size you are proposing the jet will only allow liquid fuel to pass through it which is dangerous. The tube will not be able to vapourise sufficient fuel for your oversize jet.

    Whilst Whitworth dies are still available second hand the possibility of any being available for the Primus type stoves is extremely remote. As far as I know the stoves were the only things that used the combinations of thread pitch and size. Those threads on the stove fittings would be turned on lathes, not with taps or dies

    Regards Bryan
     
  4. IvanN

    IvanN United States Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,075
    Location:
    N.E. Oregon
    It may be a formidable task, but who knows until you dive in? If you find a way to buy premade parts To reconfigure,we would all be interested.
     
  5. boknasild

    boknasild Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    614
  6. kaw550red

    kaw550red RIP

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,350
    The probability of finding premade parts that have the correct thread are extremely remote in the UK where the thread was invented but even remoter in Scandinavia who went to metric threads long before the UK.

    When the stoves were invented machine threads had only been available for about 20 years so were used on the stoves. They were invented in the UK so imperial sizes were used on the Swedish stoves.

    I have been making 96 and 00 specials for about 25 years and gravitated to the simplest way to make them which is to join the top half of the type of stove that the required burner fits to a bottom half which fits the tank. Usually this is a cannibalised fitting off the tank being used.

    Before you start on anything like this you have to understand how the burner assembly works. Putting on oversize jet on a burner or vapourising tube is DANGEROUS. The vapourising function will not work and you are likely to get flaming liquid fuel coming out of the jet which will spill on the stove supporting surface and set it on fire if it is inflammable The liquid fuel has to be vapourised before it reaches the jet. That is the way the stoves were designed to work.

    One of the most common faults on this website is yellow flames caused by the jet becoming enlarged and the fuel coming out of the jet being unable to mix with the air to allow it to burn efficiently.

    Regards Bryan
     
  7. kaw550red

    kaw550red RIP

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,350
    When I first starting making specials I soldered the rising tube to the bottom fittings. That was a bad mistake as there is a lot more heat going down the tube than with a standard set up. The result was that during use the solder suddenly turned bright silver meaning it had turned molten. Fortunately I saw it happen and turned the stove off. You need to braze the joints to resist the higher temperatures created.

    At the end of the 96 run stoves parts were made by various firms. The one making the vapourising tube made it out of a solid piece of brass with the burner head of the 80 attached to the top. It was a really neat looking fitting. However the firm making the fitting did not understand that the jet had to be a specific distance from the burner plate to get the right fuel/air mix. They got it wrong and that version of the 96 looked really neat but tended to burn with a yellow flame

    It is not what a stove looks like that is important. It is how well it works and I would be a lot more impressed if I saw a special with a bright blue flame. I can fake parts to look original but it is a lot harder making the parts that perform well

    The simplest way to get an incomplete stove working is to buy a tatty looking example that has the missing fittings on it and restore the missing parts

    The most efficient vapourising tubes were made out of a steel tube soldered into a brass bottom fitting. This may seem to contradict what I have said but does not. The steel was thin walled and conducted less heat to the solder. When you start using thick walled tubes they conduct a lot of heat and the thickness also affects the efficient vapourising of the liquid fuel. The fuel is vapourised within the burner on a conventional stove but in the tube on when it has a vapourising tube fitted. Even the design of the burner head affects the vapourising when the stove uses a vapourising tube

    Regards Bryan
     
  8. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,954
    Location:
    Lancashire, United Kingdom
    ... ditto what Bryan said so thoroughly and knowledgeably.

    As Bryan said, there's an optimum size (0.23mm) for a jet orifice on a lipstick burner and above that vapourisation is lost. It's not as efficient a design as a tubular burner and significantly the larger lipstick burner on a 100-series stove still has a 0.23mm jet orifice and produces no greater output.

    The physically larger burner isn't any more powerful but the larger diameter burner bell distributes the heat more widely over the base of the pot. The larger fuel tank capacity makes for a longer duration between refuelling and with the greater spread of legs/pot rests provides a more stable base for larger pots. Those are its selling points merely. A 210-series with a tubular burner outperforms it in every respect apart from fuel capacity/consumption and larger base for pots.

    I certainly don't baulk at tinkering with concepts and seeing them emerge as Frankenstoves, but as far as recreating a lipstick burner I'd rather invest time and energy into restoring them by returning worn, oversized jet orifices to 0.23mm specification. HERE and HERE for example.

    John
     
  9. haknuts

    haknuts Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    316
    Thanks Bryan, I will try to adress some of Our common questions.

    So the other day I went by a machine shop and asked them to help me establish what threads the P96 has. The employee was helpful and dived into his drawers. As I could observe from a 2m distance, he found a nipple that seemed to enter all the way With a snug fit, He repeated this tast twise, threw the nipple back in the drawer aninformed me it was an M16X1,5. I was thinking of asking him to bring me the nipple, but there were other customers in line. So, if the M16x1,5 is wrong, then either his nipple was misplaced, extremely worn or he read the wrong lable. So about this endurance....after Your post above I wanted to reconfirm and went by a hardware store. The M16 they have are DIN934 which is M16x2, and so the threads are wider. It will enter but only 1/2 turn. The threads may not be metric, but I think the machine shop were onto something. An M16x1,5 I would expect to enter furter.
    So I took home a thread gauge and here are some images

    metric1_25.jpg
    Metric 1,25

    metric 1_5.jpg
    Metric 1,5


    SAE 2.jpg
    SAE 1,8

    SAE 1_8.jpg
    SAE 2,0

    We could perhaps discuss the importance of these measurements later
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2016
  10. haknuts

    haknuts Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    316


    So I belive a common sized stove jet has a 4,5x0,5mm thread, whilst I have found a typical 500CP kerosene lamp jet to have 7x0,75mm thread, both with 0,23mm opening. So no, I do not suggest a 4,5 or 7mm jethole would do the trick :-)
    I do however think that in such a quest one should also consider the pressure lamp jets as stated
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  11. haknuts

    haknuts Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    316
    Thank you! I wish however I would not have to walk this stretch alone, but we'll se:-)
    The reproduction that could be expected to launch soon will most likely not have a replacable jet either.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  12. haknuts

    haknuts Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    316
  13. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,314
    Location:
    ILLINOIS, USA
    Haknuts,
    As far as I know most of the threads on brassies are non-standard, ok.

    I suggest add brass tubing to your off the shelf items (in wide variety of OD / ID sizes and wall thickness.

    Re "...reproduction that could be expected to launch soon..." sounds ambitious. I encourage any/all doable solutions restorative and frankie.
    ("...most likely not have a replacable jet..." bummer)

    Neither the 96 nor the 100 have burner *replacements available, the No.100 is also screaming for same (cost) effective solution. Sorry for dumping that here.
    I wish you well. thx omc
    *if asked "why aren't there lipstick replacements?" my guess is, you may not want to here the answer.
     
  14. haknuts

    haknuts Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    316
    @OMC The thing is, I do not have a machineshop that allows inhouse bracing and I think that counts for many of our fellow patients :-) If I were to do that, the integrated firealarms would go off. I must restrain my self to soldering, and feel uncomfortable with solderjoints on that tube. Other than that I agree.

    Commersial relaunching of the P96 lipstick is currently in process, so ambitious or not, I optimistic await that to happend.

    You can get the P100 burner here http://fogas.se/shop/2773---braennare--till-100/
     
  15. IvanN

    IvanN United States Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,075
    Location:
    N.E. Oregon
    it is still IMHO a worthy pursuit. Even following the steps of others can teach a lot that is new. I am not equipped to add much useful info, but I find the subject interesting, and think it could provide much that is useful. An all-in-one fitting size (thread, pitch, diameter etc.) resource, for missing caps and plugs, for example. What about multiple small jet holes? A whole new stove design may emerge. Carry on Dr. Frankenstove.
     
  16. Ray123

    Ray123 Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,185
    Location:
    New Hampshire, USA
    I think John's (presscall) solution of brazing a 0.23mm hypo into the vaporizer is simply brilliant and probably the easiest fix aside from peening.
     
  17. Pillepalle3

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    61
    For the thread of the lipstick to the tank I found a hint on this site pointing to "5/8 UNF 19 tpi" if I remember correctly. This thread is rather odd, the closest I could get commercially was 5/8 UNF 18 tpi, which you can buy in brasse for example here:

    https://www.conrad.de/de/gewinde-ad...ber-equus-15875-mm-58-18-unf-6903-842150.html

    This brass adapter fits well into my Optimus 96 from the late 80's and could be used as socket for either a self-made lipstick burner or for mounting a connector for a standard burner.

    Hilsen, Philipp
     
  18. haknuts

    haknuts Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    316
    A bumped update to this post. The task of Making a lipstick out of other parts was eventually buried. However I was fortunate enough to find not only a used usable stick, but also the hinged windscreen. So both are complete, one ready to go. The other one I had to desolder the pumptube in order to replace the pip. As With many Things, resoldering the tube back in Place is put on hold, but not forgotten.
     
  19. haknuts

    haknuts Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    316
    Hi guys. Browsing through ebay and these jets appeared
    Screenshot_2018-05-03-13-43-57.png
    As Tilley Lamps and Stoves unfortunately could not fulfill their ambition to launch a new lipstick, this is even a better approach - provided the jet threads are std (comes with a 0.25mm jet, should be 0.23 alias #2502) and the total length is considered. Has anyone got one of these already?
     
  20. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,541
    Location:
    I'm on the way....