To Ancient [Patent] 00's and Travelling fans

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by OMC, Jan 1, 2016.

  1. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

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    Hello ancient 00 fans (and travelling optimus fans),
    I find nmp's 00 has interesting *characteristics, his impressive TIN
    is represented as [00?] "Optimus Outfit" in 1916 ad within list below. So I'm sharing the cross reference of his 00 to the Outfit TIN but maybe we learn more, as I'm also curious if year range of the stove is c1915 and later?
    I've read, accounted for, Bryan's Optimus Patent 00 Features post btw (I TRY to do my homework).

    "Before" the pre-1917 catalogs that just posted (&shed light on history and development of many Optimus offerings) it was much more challenging to incorporate info such as the 1916 ad.
    IE NOW as an initial report re 191x Optimus camp stoves we can insert the 1916 "Outfit" ad within the range of catalog years listed below. I've no idea how many years the outfit was offered. The Outfit and Travelling 00 contain same 00 stoves afik, complete examples of either one are rare. This list also displays 191x "travelling" info, now collated, as a bonus.
    pre-1912? Ross's example Travelling 00.
    1912 offers Travelling Nos. 00 & 1
    1915 offers Travelling Nos. 00, 1 & 200 (...scout stoves)
    1916 offers Travelling Nos. 00, 1 & 200 (...scout stoves)
    1916 offers Optimus Outfit [00] separate from the Travelling 00.
    1917 offers Travelling Nos. 00, 1 & 200 (no outfit)
    1924 offers Travelling Nos. 00, 1 & 200
    1932 offers Travelling Nos. 96, 00, 1 & 1S

    I've read Optimus switched to internal NRV c1915 or later.
    nmp's 00 *characteristics: "Patent", internal NRV, bun feet, round reserve cap (vs hex), on boss (not on pump knob).

    Along w/sharing that the TIN is a match to the 1916 ad I'm curious if the stove is also circa 1916 (1915 - ? range).
    thx omc
    tag @nmp
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2016
  2. OMC

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    Matthew, Nick,
    Bumping my post, recently Matthew posted his patent 00 he wonders if it may be mid 20s, it may be?
    His nice 00 stove kit may also be a match to Nick's 00 that I discussed above?
    I don't have definitive answer(s) but above I do question if Nick's may be c1916?
    I've rehashed this for myself and will add in addition to internal NRV beginning c1915?

    A 1916 ad (in list above) shows a 00 in very similar packaging (not perfect match) as your two examples.

    I'm not sure if any catalogs etc after 1916 continue to illustrate this type of kit. If not, still the absence of such illustration is not conclusive but is at least interesting. The 1924 00 features what appears to me to be a different tin which conjures 2 comments:
    > 1924 tin may be / or likely pre-1924: Illustrations (that are accurate) more often are actual examples, meaning the 1924 tin example likely existed before or at the time the catalog was published (here, I need to point out, that we not confuse this with, often illustrations are NOT accurate but that is more often the use of outdated mismatched illustrations... a related but different scenario).
    > I think we also might consider your tins along lines of: the outfit / scout / deluxe travelling or sport and maybe these were still sold as options in 1924 (and beyond) but not shown in catalog, that's certainly a possibility. That said I do see, at least indicators, these two examples may be closer to 1916-to-1920 than mid 20s.
    Another reason to bump this is stoves relevant to above list have recently posted and for those of us who may have researched this a year ago, many early Optimus catalogs etc have posted within this last year.
    thx omc
    tag @Matthew92 @nmp
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
  3. Matthew92

    Matthew92 SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hi @OMC the inronmongers 1916 ad shows a very similar designed setup, as you say a few differences, such as the external NRV. The 1924 ad shows a much later tin design, so perhaps that places these two stoves between those dates. Difficult to say though really, as you also said the travelling kit could have still been on offer along side the standard kit shown in that 1924 paper work.:-k It's a shame Optimus didn't have a dating system like the Primus letters, but I guess these two are between 90-95 years old.
     
  4. nmp

    nmp United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Very interesting read OMC.
    Iwill have to read again and take a look at the brochures as well.

    Thanks for posting.

    Nick
     
  5. OMC

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    Hi,
    Oops, I goof fairy regularly. I've slighted Ross here. Not only did he post a 00 that shares the characteristics of your 2 examples (I goofed not to link in his example). I had missed that 2008 post and description (he did w/o catalogs we have now) he's thinking, then, his may be early 20s? He knows a thing or two.
    Two bun foot 00s I see Ross posted, one (collared legs, hex reserve lid, glass spirit bottle) that is earlier than these 2 we've discussed above -and- his 2nd 00 matches these two (albeit his w/dimple spirit cup), so there are 3.
    With each tin like this that emerges, the tin is less rare, maybe it was sold beyond 1924ish?.

    The great hand drawn stove "illustrations" (1800s - 1920s+), we would be lost w/o them yet they have their shortcomings.
    Optimus Stockholm has the best access to most current Optimus illustrations and (they use mismatched / outdated ones on occasion!) [and *note].
    Illustrations used by vendors (ie an Ironmonger in London) is one step further from the source.
    About that 1916 illustration though, it is as mentioned stove w/external NRV, tin arranged slightly different, does have kero/spirit tins and also shows collared feet btw.
    *Note iirc we've uncovered once an optimus illustration that is w/o an example to match (thought in that case, they never did sell stove exactly as illustrated). For now I think this illustration is w/o example (So ! we have that to look forward to).
    and guys i'm sorry I goof and can be wordy but meanwhile some things may get sorted too.
    thx omc
    tag @Spiritburner oops, sorry Ross
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  6. OMC

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    bump OLD THREAD
    Continuing discussion re tins should be fruitful.
    I've got other details to add at the moment.
    UPDATE: Re my list above (Jan 2016), after a 2019 review (Ian, Ross & myself), 1920 & 21 line items being key, here is updated list re catalogs:
    1912 offers Travelling Nos. 00 & 1
    1915 offers Travelling Nos. 00, 1 & 200 (...scout stoves)
    1916 offers Travelling Nos. 00, 1 & 200 (...scout stoves)
    1916 offers Optimus Outfit [00] separate from the Travelling 00.
    1917 offers Travelling Nos. 00, 1 & 200 (no outfit)
    1920 limited offering incl. fixed leg 00 (so far, tank is a match to same year travelling 00)
    1921 offers Travelling Nos. 00, 1 & 200
    1924 offers Travelling Nos. 00, 1 & 200
    1932 offers Travelling Nos. 96, 00, 1 & 1S

    UPDATE, from above re my "I've read Optimus switched to internal NRV c1915 or later."
    go with: Optimus 00 made a switch to internal NRV around 1920
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
  7. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

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    For 00 dating purposes, i share examples with specific combination of details...

    Early to mid 1920s (1920 / 21 / 22 / 23), (1923 / 24 / 25? / 26?).
    Notice lighthouse example, has:
    > bun feet
    > internal NRV
    > round reserve lid
    > early version filler cap & air release
    > collared legs

    > early squared tin w/specific latch. Same appearance (the size might vary slightly?).
    Fuel & spirit tins (that survive) were an original compliment for this kit.

    BomBomBomBom example is a match to lighthouse in key areas, happens to be in a different (later?) tin. The above 2 examples have
    > dimple spirit cup, which has been a dating focus. Due to it also being featured in 1929 catalog, I'll not include that as a detail here. Soo..

    @Bearly Travelled just posted his example. (& inspired this update). Only, his does not have the dimple in spirit cup. Bryan's example posted in '09, is also a match minus dimple. His has an oddity of no text on side of tank.

    As to why I suggest 1920 to 1925/26 ? re the 00 examples above:
    1920 catalog still shows external NRV (note pump valve cap) while the 1921 catalog does not (1920 catalog would be released pre-1920 or early 1920. Given that, a 1920 w/internal NRV is possibility. ... "Early 1920s" fits (1920 / 21 / 22 / 23).-and-
    "Mid 1920s" can fit (1923 / 24 / 25? / 26?). 1924 catalog still has collared legs and all same details as listed above.

    Mid to late 1920s ((1923 / 24 / 25 / 26), (1926 / 27? / 28? / 29)
    Ross example a match to above EXCEPT kinked legs in-use.
    In 2008 Ross's title asks "... early 1920s?"
    The answer is no (13 years late : ) ). It is mid 1920s (1924 catalog still has collared legs).
    Legs aside, Ross's is a match to those above. Same goes for Matthew's example.

    tidbits , re:
    PATENT: Estimates on CCS have "Patent" present on tanks thru the mid 1930s.
    FEET: folding feet appear in 1929 catalog. 1st year in-use, anybody?
    FILLER CAP: early type filler cap & vent is dating clue. Year range TBD, pre-1920 to after 1924 can be expanded / better defined.
    NRV, INTERNAL: kerophile 2008, 09 NRV comment still holds
    "2. The internal NRV was then adopted around 1920, ... "
    900 views
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
  8. OMC

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    a revised re do, for this 1 part:
    Mid to late 1920s ((1923 / 24 / 25? / 26?), (1926? / 27? / 28? / 29)
    Ross example a match to above EXCEPT kinked legs in-use.
    In 2008 Ross's title asks "... early 1920s?" His is not early 1920s (1924 catalog still has collared legs).
    The one change is the use of kinked legs, otherwise, Ross's and Matthew's example are match to prev. version described / linked above.

    As to why I suggest, for two 00 examples just above,
    Mid to late 1920s ((1923 / 24 / 25? / 26?), (1926? / 27? / 28? / 29):
    "Mid 1920s" can fit (1923 / 24 / 25? / 26?). The 2 examples came after 1924 catalog release. -and-
    "Late 1920s" can fit (1926? / 27? / 28? / 29), it depends when use of folding feet began, anybody?
    1924 catalog has bun feet, 1929 catalog has folding feet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
  9. OMC

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    I've searched in this meanwhile with not much luck.

    Re (one) unsolved puzzle above:
    "Late 1920s" can fit (1926? / 27? / 28? / 29), it depends when [ 1925-29 ] use of folding feet began, anybody?

    I can add something significant.
    The Primus 210 (00 niche competition) changed to folding feet in 1925.
    I join fellow stovies in thinking that Optimus would follow/copy that change.
    When? closer to 1925 vs 1929 gets my guess.
    I'm anticipating in due course example(s) showing pre-1929 00 folding feet will emerge.
     
  10. IvanN

    IvanN United States Subscriber

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    I’m an ancient fan of 00s.:content: I also find the ancient 00s interesting, but don’t have any. It’s cool how the basic design was worked out so early, and the early embellishments have a lot of style.