Wartime Coleman 500 pair in the UK

Discussion in 'Coleman No:500' started by presscall, Dec 1, 2009.

  1. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber SotM Winner

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    The ebay auction ran its course with a start price that was perhaps a shade too high, for me too, because it didn't sell.

    I emailed the seller and made an offer less than the auction price, we haggled, and I took an afternoon off work to collect and pay cash.

    It's boxed. Here's the English incription

    1354838774-Box_Eng_Pic_1.JPG

    Here's the Spanish inscription

    1354838785-Box_Esp_Pic_2.JPG

    Here's a wartime reference, presumably, which makes the box (if not the stove) a post-December 1941 product, when America entered the war. Maybe, though, the National Defense initiative pre-dated the start of war?

    1354838799-Box_Defense_Pic_3.JPG

    Box opened, the box shows nice evidence of patina, with an indentation caused by the stove's control wheel

    1354838813-Box_contents_Pic_4.JPG

    Back to the date. Here's where I need help from Coleman experts. I make out a 'P' and a '41'. the '1' of the '41' is a bit more obviously a '1' in daylight, but I couldn't quite capture that on a photo

    'A's, 'B's, 'C's and 'D's I've come across, but a 'P'?

    1354838825-A___P___or_not_Pic_12.JPG

    1354838836-A___41___or_not_Pic_13.JPG

    Try as I might, I can't convince myself that it's a badly stamped 'B'.

    Oh well, there's a conundrum I'll leave to flivver, lance, Doc, Texas and the rest to help me resolve.

    Bit of fun now, setting my other Coleman 500, the 'Canook' (Canadian) Coleman acquired during the course of my Rustbucket fettle, alongside its painted USA cousin. Canook Coleman is dated 'C' of '42'.

    1354838761-Colemen_Pic_5.JPG

    Some comparisons now.

    First, the steel generator jamb and valve nuts on the painted example ...

    1354838855-Valve_painted_Pic_6.JPG

    ... and the brass equivalents on the Canook Coleman

    1354838864-Valve_brassie_Pic_7.JPG

    Big difference, a magnet demonstrates that the painted tank is steel ...

    1354838874-Tank_painted_Pic_8.JPG

    ... it's just not attracted to the brass tank

    1354838884-Tank_brassie_Pic_9.JPG

    Mixture levers, both in the 'Light' (to the right) as opposed to 'Burn' (to the left) position. Painted tank version uppermost of the two, brass tank 500 the lower of the two photos

    1354838895-Mixture_painted_Pic_10.JPG

    1354838910-Mixture_brassie_Pic_11.JPG

    Fun I said, and that means firing them up! They both simmer beautifully ...

    1354838924-Simmer_Pic_14.JPG

    ... with a smooth, gradual transition to full blast. The Canook Coleman on the right was a bit more lively during this firing, down to a bit of a pumping imbalance between the two when I took the photo

    1354838940-Full_blast_Pic_15.JPG

    In the picture of the painted tank stove in the box, a leaflet was just visible. Here it is

    1354838953-Leaflet_Pic_16.JPG

    1354838977-Leaflet_Pic_17.JPG

    1354838998-Leaflet_Pic_18.JPG

    So, help with the date, please!

    Oh yeah, one more clue. I looked for printer's marks on the leaflet, and sure enough there was one, just about visible along the bottom edge of the top photo of the front of the leaflet, above. There's a code, 'F1142', then '1-42' and 'Printed in the U.S.A.' Hmm, 1942 eh?

    Examples of both of these stoves appear on Terry Marsh's website, bottom of the stack of photos (Canook Coleman - mine was originally painted olive green, judging by the steel base that's still carrying its coat of paint) and eighth from the bottom of the stack of photos (the cream-painted example).

    http://terrence.marsh.faculty.noctrl.edu/lantern/colestovespre1945.html

    All the best,

    John
     
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  2. Texas

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    " 'A's, 'B's, 'C's and 'D's I've come across, but a 'P'? "

    John,
    Based on the "Monday morning" quality or depth of those strikings, that could just as easily be a "B" or maybe an "F".

    What do you think? I'm no "spert" on those by any stretch....or anything else.

    Nice stove and amazing that it fired right up with, I guess, some minor fettling.

    Best,
    Bob
     
  3. RonPH

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    I'm no spert too so - will stick to my 502.
     
  4. flivver

    flivver United States Subscriber

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    John: As I think you are already aware you have two WW11 rather uncommon Speedmasters. Congrats!! Mike...
     
  5. Lance

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    I'm with Texas on this one, a misstrike on the "B". Have never heard of a P or any other later time frame than a "D".

    lance
     
  6. Knight84

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    Congrats!!! Like Mike said those are two rare stoves. Especially on that side of the pond.

    I agree it looks like a bad B. Most likely a Friday shift. :lol:

    Thank you for sharing

    Cheers,
    Jeff
     
  7. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark Subscriber

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    Evening, Presscall,

    Now, there's a pair to draw to!! VERY nice, my Friend!! :clap: :clap: I love the comparisons to one another, and the apparent differences and similarities. I also love the fact that you've turned up yet another Mexican Coleman, as I like to call them!! Until others on CCS started showing theirs, I'd never seen another, besides my own. My box is in very poor condition, when compared to yours and a few others that have been shown here. But, my '47 Speedmaster is in pretty good shape, considering, and after having installed the fine generator that Joe so kindly sent my way, that old stove is once again burning blue as can be, and simmering as they as seem to do: perfectly!!

    Thanks, very much, John, for another of your always information and enjoyable posts! Well done, and please keep them coming! Congrats on your pair of fine Speedmasters! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  8. Lance

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    Doc did you throw the old generator away??? If not please send it to me, i've a plan????

    lance
     
  9. hydro451

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    Hi All,

    John nice score :clap: - very good stove . Your box is excellent and the literature too. :clap:

    I 'm surprised at how fast the nickle plated brass founts of the USA made 40's Speed Master went to the painted steel fount !

    It seems within a year the nickle plated brass founts were replaced with the painted steel founts in the USA

    I think it's a "B-41" manufacture date . The combination of a heavy paint job and low stamping has partially obscured the designation.

    Tom

    P.S. John, regardless of what you paid for it , it's a real treasure and you'll enjoy it for life :)
     
  10. flivver

    flivver United States Subscriber

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    Tom: They only went to steel for the war effort/ at the end of the war they went back to brass. Mike...

    P.S. Does anyone have or seen a 1940's Speedmaster "box" made in America that does not have Spanish on one side?
     
  11. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber SotM Winner

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    Hang on, Mike, if the stove was manufactured in the first half of 1941 (A,B,C,D are quarters, right?) and war wasn't declared until 8th December 1941, the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the move to steel tanks can't have been for the war effort?

    Or, does it disclose a concern at Coleman (as elsewhere with folks in America) of the war in Europe escalating and the prospect of brass being in short supply in the not-too-distant future (so best get cracking on churning out those steel tanks to conserve the brass for our fuel valves)?

    Just a thought.

    Regards,

    John
     
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  12. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark Subscriber

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    Hello, Lance,

    I most certainly did not toss the old generator, and actually was planning to work on it a bit, when time presents. The cleaning needle was snapped off by someone who did not take their time when last working on that old and venerable stove...... no idea who might have done that....... :^o :^o :oops: :oops: :whistle: :whistle: 8-[ 8-[ :doh: :doh: ](*,) ](*,)

    Do you need it for a project you have going? If so, I'll be glad to send it to you. But, if not, I'd like to keep it as a spare, even though I have a feeling that my old '47 Speedmaster will likely never need it! ;) :thumbup: :thumbup: Let me know your thoughts, and we can go from there. Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
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  13. flivver

    flivver United States Subscriber

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    John: Yes the U.S. declared war After Pearl Harbor, however we had been in war effort mode for several years. Had we not been shipping war effort material to the U.K. and other allies for years prior our entering the war? Is it not odd that a capital war ship takes over three years to design and manufacture yet less than a year after our navy was destroyed at Pearl we had the worlds largest navy? Mike...
     
  14. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom Subscriber SotM Winner

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    Of course you're right, Mike, I was being pedantic.

    You were on a war footing, indeed, and a whole pile of brass was destined for ammo cases.

    Cheers,

    John
     
  15. Knight84

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    It was the shortage of copper that was the real problem. I still have a 1943 U.S. steel cent somewhere.
    An interesting time in history.
    With the U.S. Neutrality Acts and such.

    Cheers,
    Jeff
     
  16. hikin_jim

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    Are those steel? I thought they were zinc.

    A nice looking pair of stoves, John.
     
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  17. Knight84

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    Hi Jim.

    How is the family?

    It seems we are both right kinda. They are zinc plated/coated steel.
    Steelie

    Cheers,
    Jeff
     
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  18. Bob M

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    Hi Jim, You may want to contact Terry Marsh. He did a pretty extensive Excell spreadsheet on the 500 series. He may have some answers.
    tgmarsh@noctrl.edu

    Bob
     
  19. flivver

    flivver United States Subscriber

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    Hi all: Bob, I don't think Terry's article was about WW11 pennies.

    Jeff & Jim: You are both right; the wartime pennies were zinc "plated" with a steel core. Mike...
     
  20. hikin_jim

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    lol. I knew I hadn't ever seen any rusty ones. :)

    The family is well. Little Joyce is growing by leaps and bounds:
    IMGP1460.JPG
     
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