Which model MSR is this?

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by Hazet, Sep 2, 2020.

  1. Hazet

    Hazet Subscriber

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    Is this a G/K?
    Thanks for any input.

    s-l1600 (1).jpg s-l1600 (2).jpg s-l1600 (3).jpg s-l1600 (4).jpg s-l1600 (5).jpg s-l1600 (6).jpg s-l1600 (7).jpg

    Some characteristics are:
    Flat top generator loop, angled to the right when looking down the fuel tube.
    Bakelite base.
    Short pump clip arm.
    No date on the fuel pump attachment boss.
    External snap rings hold the arm, as well as the pot support rods.
    Jet is not marked, has a screen inside of it, and uses the sintered bronze fuel filter.
    Removable fuel tube cleaning cable.
    Note: original sparker unit was broken, and replaced with one that is nearly identical (same size knob as original).
     
  2. OMC

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    I gotta run and will revisit later.
    Flat top gen, cable in fuel tube, it's looking like a DF but for me too soon to say for sure.
    You ask if it's a GK, if so it would have to be early GK?
    I'm not aware we've nailed down the details of the earliest GK yet (esp. the stamp on base).
    For now I can add, yours has
    early version of bakelite base
    (a GK by 1980 has pat # stamped into bakelite base)
    yours has pat # sticker.

    Yours also has the 2nd lg hole on L. side of burner housing another detail to be mindful of.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  3. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Morning, Jon (@Hazet ),

    My guess is that your stove is an early GK, as it is very much like the earlier DF, to my eyes. Adding in the removable cleaning cable, makes your stove the G/K, IMHO. Neat find, and well worth owning and using! Thanks for sharing. Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  4. Hazet

    Hazet Subscriber

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    I appreciate the input so far.

    More info:
    The jet is not stamped g k (or any combination thereof), it is blank on top. See pic below. It also has the fine mesh screen in it.

    Based on too many wasted hours reading every thread on the forums about these over the years, I have been under the impression that:
    -All GK stoves have fully rounded fuel tube loops, not flat top (only MF and DF having that style), and angle to the left, not the right.
    -Some/late DF stoves have a removable cable.
    OMC: thanks for that observation about the markings on the base. I had not noticed the differences before, and am looking through threads (again) to try to find GK with both the bakelite type base with "early" style markings (haven't seen one yet).

    It looks identical to this DF: MSR Dual Fuel Stove
    same stove posted in this timeline: Model 9 to X-GK
    and aside from the sparker knob, like this one, labeled DF: LATEST MSR items.
    and some detail discussion here: MSR MF....DF.... or WHAT??!!!!
    and then there is scattered bits and pieces of info in numerous other threads

    I'm just trying to, if possible, confirm one way or the other.
    Thanks

    s-l1600 (8).jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  5. hikerduane

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    I have one with the cable and one with a rod.
    Duane
     
  6. Hazet

    Hazet Subscriber

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    Duane, would you please clarify what you mean by 'one'? A DF? A GK?
    I am presuming you mean DF, because I don't believe GK ever came with a rod, but again, I want to be clear as to which stove you are referring.
    Thanks
     
  7. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    I believe the flat generator could have been used at the start of GK production. Old stock.
    The Gk was field maintainable. The cable did that.
    Nice find.

    Ken
     
  8. hikerduane

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    I have three or four of the models with the flat generator and one with no wire around the genny, that is NIB with the genny to the left. I was referring only to I have one stove with the rod and one with the cable. I can't keep up with all the twists and turns and am not improving. I've posted my models before all lined up.
    Duane
     
  9. OMC

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    Hazet,
    I left off with your flat top gen is looking like a DF. If it's a GK, it's an early GK. As far as I know we've not nailed down the details for the earliest GK.

    I'll add waltie's example, if his is all original we see
    a round gen but still has early bakelite base.
    Re that, so far we know only that the next ver. bakelite base w/pat #s was in use by July 1980.
    ------------------------------
    I mentioned also be mindful of the hole on the left.
    On second thought that might not be a detail to focus on to advance the topic.
    I've just had a look and for now can't make sense of when that left hole is there or not :-k .
    -------------------------------

    Here is one of the line ups Duane mentioned btw.

    [​IMG]

    source

    "... Labeled MF is on the [far] left, DF on the [far] right, has the cable."
    Might one of Duane's be an exact match to your example.

    It would help to confirm but if current trend holds all 5 have the early bakelite base
    (or waltie's isn't all original).
     
  10. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    A question comes up.
    Did the MF/DF have a 'removable cable'?
    If not, then the G/GK used old stock flat generators at the start of that series.
     
  11. Hazet

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    Well, I am still utterly confused.
    Thanks for the links and pic OMC.


    The stove I'm asking about has been called an "early" GK, solely based on it having a removable cable. Is this the *only* reason?
    I realize this is not an exact science, that early MSR stuff is very nuanced and often debated down to the style of pot support clips they used. In my work I have come across many such quaqmires of what is physically in front of me clearly varies from printed factory sources, other known "real life" examples, or often debated subtle differences.
    I guess I am just still not clear as to why this particular stove is being referred to as an "early GK" , when others that are similar have been called a DF.

    Perhaps I am simply not finding the "right" discussion thread about cable nuances of pre vs. post GK stoves, as searching for such terms brings up way too many irrelevant threads.

    In this thread: New old stock MSR G/K the stove pictured there, is noted as being "the earliest NOS GK i'm aware of at the moment". That stove has a round loop, so not the same as the one I am asking about.
    "Waltie's example" is not comparable to the stove I am asking about, as Waltie's also has a rounded loop fuel tube.

    Snowgoose's seemigly well researched and presented thread makes no mention of "early" GK's having a flat loop.

    Again, in Ken's thread here: MSR Dual Fuel Stove
    a stove is shown that, aside from the color of the metal (which, on mine, could have easily burned off and discolored over time, as Ken's is NOS and mine is very well used), and mine having a paper label (which I have owned and seen on earlier stoves than mine), all of the characteristics are the same. This particular stove has been labeled a 9DF, and has never been referred to, or debated about as being an "early GK", at least as far as I can tell. TVFranti even comments that it looks like a "Duel Fuel", and mentioned at the end of his post that it would be interesting to see what style surge protector is under the jet (although I have to be perfectly clear that I do not know what that would signify, but might help with some kind of identification).

    The stove on the far right in Duane's thread is labeled a DF. There is minimal discussion about the cable aspect in that thread, so I am not sure what to gather from that.
    However, this comment "I do not see a small company like MSR not using older parts on new models. Or using new parts on older models. There are a lot of 'bits' to a stove. All changes do not happen at once. Instructions, labels, boxes, etc, plus all of the manufacturing techniques.", along with Ken's post above lead me to this speculation:

    Speculation: The stove I am asking about is a late production DF, with cable cleaning capability, a feature that got carried forward into GK and subsequent MSR models.
    Thoughts?
     
  12. OMC

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    Excellent.
    Might you consider adding to your comment?
    ...(late production) DF with later (wide top) jet w/screen, surge damper (aka sintered brass filter cone) and cable cleaning capability, features that got carried forward into GK...
    ---------------------------------------------

    FYI as to why do i suggest this... the change to jet occurred after MF was in full production (don't know if the last MF could possibly have had any of these upgrades. I find "so far" it is no, these changes happen after MF.).
    It has been suggested the jet changes occurred at the same time the cable was added (maybe but unconfirmed as far as i know). The timing of the two changes were maybe simultaneous also maybe not. The changes were within a fairly tight time frame.
    B. Suggested too that these change defined the DF (maybe but unconfirmed).

    I do not yet adopt "B." myself, if it remains based on speculation because, as myself and others have pointed out.
    There were no physical changes needed to the stove itself to go from the MF multi-fuel to DF dual fuel (only name change & packaging req'd.).
    Along with that,
    the XGK version of stove was steadily being improved (regardless of timing or model #). IE the early MF is not a match to late MF, an earlier GK is not a match to later GKs. DF details are elusive but it's plausible that the earlier DF is not a match to the later DF.
    ---------------------------------

    PS in agreement & fwiw, by my recently alerting to earlier GKs that do not match, I also narrowed the time frame for the earliest GK. Rather than a match i was showing earlier GKs, as you mention, that so far do not match yours.
    Thank you
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
  13. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Good thinking.
    The cable was implemented before the NEW G/GK Field Maintainable Stove was written in the instructions.

    I have always pictured a stove sent back for repair. Fuel line plugged up. And the customer being sent a new stove. Engineers ponder a solution. "Ah Ha! Let us put a cable in there!"
     
  14. OMC

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    a FOLLOWUP
    Thanks to Hazet again for posting.
    Pete, Hazet, Duane 'n all,
    With early "G/K" detail Pete has just confirmed.
    From what we see "so far", Hazet's suggestion that his seems to be a late DF fits in sequence.
    With several dozens of examples recently re-reviewed the following sequence emerges:
    > early MF
    > a later MF
    > last MF, 1st DF remain unconfirmed
    > early DF unconfirmed
    > Hazet's late DF
    > Pete's early G/K
    > Aug 1980 G/K
    > first dated G/K

    An aside: I've posed the open question, it remains. Reminder: do i join others wondering if MFs, DFs and earliest G/K... those with unmarked jets, did they come with ONE jet (attempted multi-fuel, then dual fuel... this performance w/only ONE jet). Doesn't that seem to be holding true?

    The MF to DF to GK sequence:
    > early MFs, 3: seems to me Sam guessed right in 2010, & Duane's
    and Gottdibbs got mixed up MF v DF, "i think" he shows us an early MF in his DF post.
    Early MFs have:
    flat top gen (Duane's is bare), gen (situ: far left), no date code, early bakelite base,
    rod in fuel tube, short catch arm w/push-on retainer,
    early jet (not a wider top) unmarked ,
    earlier MF has "the helix (threaded rod)" solid threaded rod.
    sparker: wide knob, metal shaft, hollow nut, brass flint tube (slotted metal set screw)
    burner body: 1 cutout, came w/yel. pump w/pins

    > a later MF differs from early MF.
    later MF having: flat top gen, wire wrapped. (situ: rt of center), snap ring retainer on catch arm,
    early jet (not a wider top) unmarked w/ "the helix (threaded rod)" hollow threaded rod.
    burner body: 2 cutouts, came w/yel. pump w/pins
    IMG_2907Lbl (2).JPG IMG_0832 (2).JPG

    > the very last MF and very 1st DF c.June '76. Remain unconfirmed but I'm +1 w/suggestion that has been made: w/o labels, package & paper there may or may not be any difference between the two. For MultiFuel to burn Dual Fuel... there would be ZERO changes needed to the actual stove itself.
    Read between the lines: an example may be posted, maybe even in this list, BUT not yet confirmed that it is one or the other (or w/o packaging could be either/both).

    > early DF?

    > a DF (maybe a later DF, THIS OP) has:
    flat top gen, wire wrapped. (situ: rt of center), no date code,
    early bakelite base,
    cable in fuel tube, short catch arm w/snap ring retainer,
    jet (w/wider top), unmarked w/surge damper cone, sintered brass / bronze,
    sparker: wide knob, metal shaft, hollow nut, ..., burner body: 2 cutouts, came w/yel. pump w/pins

    next, thank you Pete!
    > (so far) earliest G/K has:
    round gen, no date code,
    later bakelite base (has pat #s)
    cable in fuel tube, short catch arm w/snap ring retainer
    jet (w/wider top) w/surge damper cone, sintered brass / bronze
    sparker: thin knob, brass shaft, solid nut, brass flint tube (brass thumbscrew on flint tube)
    burner body: 2 cutouts, came w/yellow pump w/pins

    > Aug. 1980 G/K
    round gen, no date code
    later bakelite base (has pat #s).
    cable in fuel tube, long catch arm w/snap ring retainer
    2 jets, marked K & G (w/wider top) w/surge damper cone, sintered brass / bronze.
    sparker: thin knob, brass shaft, solid nut, brass flint tube (brass thumbscrew on flint tube)
    burner body: 2 cutouts, came w/black knob yellow pump ( the black knob, the next yellow pump)

    > example of the next G/K version?. From what we see so far ?, it is Apr. '81, a date stamped fuel block and aluminum base.
    gotta run
    @8R Pete , @Hazet @hikerduane @anfeng
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020