why are Max Sievert SVEA 123's so collectible.

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by ckimmerle, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. ckimmerle

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    Hi all. I am going to burn my first question by asking why the SVEA 123 stoves with the Max Sievert markings are so much more valuable than those without. I have two 123s, one which has the cap and pricker marked Max Sievert, although the bell and flame spreader are both marked "Made in Sweden," which I think means they are replacement parts. Anyway, just curious and asking here as Google failed me.
    Thanks.
     
  2. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    @ckimmerle

    They are older than the Optimus SVEA 123 and manufactured by Sievert; and therefore they are probably more scarce. Some say the later workmanship is not as good as the earlier manufactured SVEA 123s and Optimus SVEA 123Rs.

    Tony
     
  3. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark Subscriber

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    Hi, ckimmerle,

    Welcome to CCS!! Many believe, and I am one of those who does, that the Sievert-made SVEAs are the best of breed. I've thought that from the very first one of those I got, and after all the passing years, feel that even more so today. Most all the 123 and 123R stoves are good, but the Max Sievert-made versions are the way they were originally designed to be. Later models strayed from the original design, probably to save money. Just my take on it, and others may feel differently. But, suffice it to say, "most" of us love the 123's that Sievert made, the best! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  4. ArchMc

    ArchMc Subscriber

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    I agree with everything said so far. In addition, many people (myself included) got their first stoves within a few years after passage of the Wilderness Act in the USA (1964), which mandated stoves in many areas. (Before that, most backpacking cooking was over wood fires). (I should probably exclude the Pacific Northwest from that generalization. They had used gasoline stoves up there in the rain for decades.) The Svea 123 was introduced at about that time, and so was perfectly positioned to grab a big portion of the market. Look at an old copy of Colin Fletcher's The Complete Walker, which was pretty much the backpacking bible of the '60s and '70s (or read Fletcher's 1000 Mile Summer), and you will hear nothing but praise for the Svea 123. So the stove was popular and, because it was (and is) a great stove, much loved.

    Many folks (again, myself included) also used them as winter stoves and here they noticeably outperformed the later 123s and especially 123Rs that our less-fortunate companions were bringing along.

    Also, most folks who buy them today are collectors or otherwise into the retro scene, and for us older is usually better.

    ....Arch
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
  5. Robert Bruce

    Robert Bruce Subscriber SotM Winner

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    The 123 and 123r are iconic stoves ,very reliable, light, and look good. Parts are available so people like them. Or at least I do. They also work well. So I guess there is a high demand for them therefore price to suit.

    Cheers
    Rob
     
  6. geeves

    geeves New Zealand Subscriber

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    Best way to tell them apart is the control spindle. On the R it is horizontal but on the earlier non R is angled down.
    The main practical difference between te two was the inclusion of a cleaning needle in the R model. Very few if any parts are interchangable.
    Certainly the non R will be marked Max Sievert and is older and fewer made so this gives them a rarety value although some auction sellers are unlikely to know the difference and even if they do they might re engrave the tank in the attempt to make more money. They are still not that rare or valuable though so if you wait a cheap one will come along.
    The R models are marked SVEA and might be marked Made in Sweden. This model came along when Optimus bought Sievert keeping gas stoves under the Seivert name and petrol stoves under the Optimus name. You sometimes see the 123R refered to as the Optimus SVEA as it is the only stove to carry that name. They were made in Sweden for a long time but eventually became unfashionable and production essentially stopped till about 10 years ago. The new ones are still made under licence to Optimus and still carry the SVEA brand but instead of Made in Sweden they just say Sweden or nothing at all. These are the stoves that gave the 123r a bad name. They are made in either Taiwan or China under licence but not enough time was spent on quality control. Most were as good as the originals but enough were not to tarnish the name.
    I have 2 123Rs I wouldnt mind an earlier one but Im not paying the current auction prices for one
    Please do not ask how much you will get if you sell it
     
  7. itchy

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    "... the bell and flame spreader are both marked "Made in Sweden," which I think means they are replacement parts."

    I don't think you should assume that. I don't have mine handy but someone else may know for sure. The Sieverts had a parts number and "Made in Sweden" but not "Sievert" on on the flame plate and bell. In my experience, the later (plain) 123s have no stamping on the flame plate and bell -- although some might. The fuel cap, however, is marked "Sievert" in addition to the parts number.
     
  8. ckimmerle

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    Thanks, guys. The market for collectibles in any field—from Beanie Babies to teapots—is often irrational, so it's nice to know that there may be a sane rationale for the Sievert status upgrade. To be honest, I don't see much in the way of differences between my two 123 stoves, and both work very good, but I now have my favorite :)
     
  9. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr Subscriber

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    A short period of time, after the Sievert name was purchased and before Optimus implemented their changes, there are some 123s that are undervalued because they are the Sievert stove, without the engraving.
    P.S. Don't tell anyone that news.
     
  10. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark Subscriber

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    Morning, All,

    Here's an example of the popularity of the SVEA Sievert-made stoves:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Max...982801?hash=item4648ac9d91:g:n6UAAOSwQYZWtsE3

    This is not even for the earliest model, either!! Looks to me, as if the seller (maybe a CCS member) learned about his Sievert Svea right here at CCS!! Good for him/her in actually listing the stove as it should be, instead of some of the fanciful tripe that often accompanies such listings!! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc (happy to have a couple of Sievert SVEA 123's, a bit earlier than the one on the 'bay)!!
     
  11. OMC

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    ckimmerle,
    Welcome.
    It is like most all collectibles and the short answer to your OP is
    the original Sievert Svea 123s are more rare
    (they are older and I am +1 also better made, although I've not met a svea 123 I did not like, they're ALL good imo).
    "Salesman" Max Sievert promoted "brand recognition" all Sievert stoves have identifiable characteristics. This also being true for SVEA's many stove models.
    +1 with Itchy he is correct. The Sievert 123s flame spreader and bell do say "made in Sweden".
    From the sounds of your OP, one of the 2 Sveas that you have is a Sievert Svea 123.
    Classic camp stoves are a joy to behold, I say fire it up to full roar, with very little upkeep it will work as designed, is extremely reliable and will easily last your lifetime and beyond. thx omc
     
  12. Heirphoto

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    I am kind of new to this so may be a bit confused on these. I fell in love with the idea of this little stove back in the early 70s via Colin Fletcher's books. It was the "must have" stove.

    I assumed that there was the Max Sievert Svea 123, the later Svea 123 and then the Svea 123R....3 main versions (more or less). My stove is the 123 with the angles flame adjuster that is marked Made In Sweden and it has two rings/grooves just below the bell/flame spreader. The flame spreader is not marked Made In Sweden. The brass tank is marked Made In Sweden but the windscreen is not marked at all. Everything seems to match as far as level of tarnish. The adjustment key is not the latest version but not exactly like the Sievert marked ones I have seen on ebay. So, are all regular, non-R Svea stoves Sievert stoves or are there just plain Svea 123 non-R stoves too?
     
  13. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr Subscriber

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    As I have learned here from those that came before me..... there are many posts/threads discussing exactly this. Take a few minutes to search.

    The Sievert name was purchased by Optimus in 1969. The engraving stopped. Then the parts were changed, like the chain and the vaporizer rings you mentioned. (The fill cap had way too many changes for me to recall, I do need to look at that more, later) We are now at 1974. Some time soon, possibly 1976 the 123R was introduced. There is an Optimus catalog in the Library with one in it.
    The rings and the slant spindle indicate (approx) 1974 to 1976.

    Ken in NC
     
  14. itchy

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    I was really excited when i stumbled on a Sievert at a great price -- but I have only fired it up once. She is the prettiest stove on the shelf with some other 123s and 123Rs, but she never gets asked out on a camping trip.
     
  15. OMC

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    Hello again Heir,
    Glad you're here.
    re your "...are all regular, non-R Svea stoves Sievert stoves"?
    NO.

    "... or are there just plain Svea 123 non-R stoves too?"
    and YES

    Under TMI (the category invites chat so here ya go): There is an abundance of your "plain Svea 123s" available used (far more than Sievert Svea 123s).
    re your "plain Svea 123"
    The Sievert Svea 123 was VERY successful, Optimus bought-out the rights to produce it and positioned themselves to CONTINUE-ON with the on-going success the Svea 123 had established.
    It is fair to say Optimus wanted their Svea 123 on store shelves to look EXACTLY like it's predecessor, the Sievert Svea 123. The Sievert was no longer available AND the "Sievert" name was "almost" completely gone/removed.

    It is interesting c1969/70 when Optimus 1st began selling what you call "just plain Svea 123s":
    > The stove was almost identical to it's predecessor, it had the same tank and tank was stamped w/the same "Svea 123", an Optimus stove that doesn't say Optimus on it, anywhere (odd aye?).
    > The boxes were the same as Sievert's boxes and still boldly said (as before) "Svea 123" but in small print they may (or may not) also add made by Optimus, so small it is easy to miss (odd aye?).
    > The tell-tale instructions.. the instructions for these "just plain Svea 123s", initially were Sievert instructions w/Sievert blacked-out but soon after (w/same boxes/stoves) the instructions reveal title "Optimus 123" with the [Optimus] "Svea 123" stove.
    thx omc
     
  16. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    I confess I am stunned to see the price thus far on that auction Doc linked....

    Was the lemon box a Sievert? I have one of those unfired, and then one in an older box unfired. Haven't looked at them for years; better go search.

    As to the one in my Sigg that I use all the time, I don't think I've ever looked, though it is a 123, not an R.
     
  17. Heirphoto

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    Thanks OMC for the clarification. Love my little stove to be sure whoever made it.
     
  18. OMC

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    Hi Ed,
    re "Was the lemon box a Sievert"
    Optimus used the heck out of the Lemon box. All the Svea 123s I've seen in the Lemon box, incl some of Optimus earliest examples, have all been Optimus (so far), BUT was it initially a Sievert box? Did Sievert ALSO use the Lemon box c1969 near the end of the Sievert 123?.... I would like to know that too for sure but I don't think so.
    It may have been Optimus to first use that box. Oh, btw I think Optimus used it from the start, so VERY early-on.
    The Lemon box seems like the most-used box imo. They continued using it up until and through the introduction of the SVEA 123Rs.
    Along the way in the meanwhile other boxes were also used imo (ie the red & white, and ones w/green front label). thx omc
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2016
  19. snwcmpr

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  20. OMC

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    Hello again Ed, I hope that was helpful. It would be good to hear eventually if your Svea 123 in Lemon box is an Optimus.

    Ken,
    I post, re your "I have several Sievert Flannel Shirt boxes. One dated xx-xx-71. So, the flannel shirt Sievert was 'Used the heck out of' after the purchase by Optimus."

    Your comment relates to my previous comment or just as likely you're mocking my comment? (if so, critical again).
    Would you like to correct something? I think i stand by it, I welcome any n all input to contribute to content and accuracy.

    As your comment reads...
    If you are saying because you have several *Red & White boxes that, that box was "Used the heck out of" if so
    you are welcome to your anecdotal method, to attempt to make YOUR point.
    BTW Optimus DID use the Red & white box but do you have any idea for how long? Are there any examples after 71?

    My comment was not anecdotal and not reflective of stoves that I have.

    *I recognize the reference to Flannel shirt box but for readers it is ALSO the Red & White box that I too refer to above (same box).
    thx omc
    PS An alert popped to refer me back to this post yet, here, I do not see that I'm tagged.