Why do we need regulated burners on kerosene stoves?

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by Twoberth, Jan 30, 2020.

  1. Twoberth

    Twoberth United Kingdom Subscriber

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    I can understand the need for an internal pricker mechanism that pushes crud out of the jet, but why do we need to regulate flow at the burner, when we can regulate pressure at the air screw on the tank? Clearly we can’t do this safely on gasoline stoves, but it’s normal practice to achieve a simmer flame on lots of kerosene stoves.

    Other than being a marketable ’improvement’, are there good scientific reasons why flow regulation near the flame is better than pressure regulation remotely?
     
  2. Andrew

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    Works wonders having two regulated burners on one stove. One on full blast and the other off or simmering.
     
  3. Twoberth

    Twoberth United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Yes, I can see the advantage on double burner stoves with a single tank.
     
  4. Twoberth

    Twoberth United Kingdom Subscriber

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    But apparently not necessary on single kero burners. Or am I missing something?

    Gloria 1 and  2.jpg

    from here.
     
  5. BradB

    BradB United States Subscriber

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    On my OS1, it is slightly easier to fine tune a simmer, compared to my unregulated stoves. I can see why you might consider it redundant. Of course you can change from low power to high without pumping more.
     
  6. Twoberth

    Twoberth United Kingdom Subscriber

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    @BradB
    Good point! Thanks for your input.
     
  7. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    @Twoberth
    I think it’s down to indoor kerosene stove use, where releasing pressure on the airscrew to reduce the flame also releases a smell of paraffin.

    Since a unique selling point of a paraffin pressure stove for indoor use was it being ‘odourless’ (mentioned in many early advertisements) as opposed to the comparatively smelly wick stove, the opportunity was taken quite early on to develop a regulated burner where to reduce the flame it wasn’t necessary to release paraffin vapour. ‘Odourless’ only holds true on an unregulated paraffin pressure stove if it’s maintained at a set flame, with additional pumping to maintain that flame over a period or to increase the output - but not to release pressure.

    No big deal in reality to generate a whiff of paraffin, but a refinement and marketing advantage to avoid it altogether.

    Additionally of course to a busy cook is the benefit of not having to re-pressurise a stove when next used after one cooking session. Pressure holds for days I’ve noticed on regulated stoves I have equipped with a pressure gauge.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  8. OMC

    OMC United States Subscriber

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    Brad has it covered within 2 excellent points and John re disadvantage of odor/pressure release.

    Thanks to all. My reply (same time) was to reconsider OP and maybe why it is asked is because:
    It is true a valve is not "needed" to regulate a kerosene stove.
    In part however it does depend on what is meant by *regulate.
    Similarly, what is the **advantage of a valve.
    Only the valve offers single operation to *regulate hi and lo and hi ... etc.
    Without a valve: the pump adjusts only higher (to go up again you pump up again )
    and the air vent adjusts only lower.

    1922 Primus describes **advantage of valve: "...the flame can be regulated and extinguished by means of the burner valve, without letting out the air which has already been pumped into the tank. Pumping, therefore, need only be carried out to maintain the necessary pressure in the tank."

    An example, heat meal, just turn off stove and EAT! Soon after stove can be restarted for continued use (w/o pumping).
    ---------------------------------------------------

    This brings to mind something I hadn't considered....
    for big 3 or 4 Swede makers: Sievert, Primus, Optimus & Radius and re basic 3 legger kero domestics (1 & 5s). Approx what years did, the advantage of, regulated burners begin I wonder, or who was 1st :-k .
    I assumed :oops: until just now, that it was much earlier than 1922, the Primus catalog I've quoted.

    For domestics, it is silents that most often have valve, silents pre-date 1900 iirc. For the big 3 1900s/1910s I guess I was thinking regulated silents were in use then too :oops:. So who is credited with 1st offering this advantage for 3 legger domestics, I wonder. Sorry for drift.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  9. Twoberth

    Twoberth United Kingdom Subscriber

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    All good stuff. Thanks.
     
  10. afoton

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    I prefer to adjust simmering with the air release screw. So I have put tank lids with air screw on all my 111s, because it works better for me than the regulating on the burner. So for adjusting power, I do not need regulated burners.

    For transporting mounted stoves, a regulated burner prevent leaking. That is a nice feature, at least when tenting in the winter. A stove allways ready to use, without any need of mounting anything, can be a life saver when one is cold.
     
  11. Twoberth

    Twoberth United Kingdom Subscriber

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    @afoton
    Preventing leaking, another good benefit. Thank you.
     
  12. Afterburner

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    On stoves which burner is on same level as tank (f.ex. 8R and 111 variants) shut-off valve is needed to prevent fuel leaks through the burner when stove is not used. Same shut-off valve can be easily used for regulating. On outdoor stoves like 123, 8R and 111 variants shut-off valve is useful to prevent fuel leaks through the burner during transport since stove can be in any position (upside-down, burner below tank, etc.) in backpack/etc. Same shut-off valve works for regulating.

    If stove is in use and needs more power pumping it has to be done very-very carefully in order to prevent pot/kettle to drop-off from the pot supports. With regulated burner you can just increase the flame and no need to worry that pot/kettle drops-off.
     
  13. Ed Winskill

    Ed Winskill United States Subscriber

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    For a few years after I started collecting, I used a couple of silents in the kitchen for general cooking from time to time; just because I was a stovie.

    I used a Buflam 1 3/4 pinter without regulated burner, and a Hipolito 2 two-pinter with one. I found that the regulated burner was indeed more convenient, the main point being that the control is finer, and one doesn't have to pump to raise the flame back up, just as John pointed out.

    This would be a good selling point for regular, day-in, day-out domestic use.
     
  14. LollyKat

    LollyKat United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Does using the air screw and running at low power clog up the burner more quickly? I thought it was best to run these stoves at full power (which of course isn't always what I want).
     
  15. Simes

    Simes Subscriber

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    A very good observation as well @LollyKat.

    It's easier to control flow before the jet than adjust the jet size, which is done by pricker on many stoves to get simmer at constant pressure.

    Lower pressure as you rightly point out can lead to inefficient vapourisation is my guess, and the thermal feed back.
     
  16. Wim

    Wim Subscriber

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    There are 2 main reasons why I like regulated burners on some of my kero burning stoves. One is, you can pressurize the found during pre heat so no clumsy me having to repeat things (I also put the kettle on during pre heat, no waste of energy!). The second, during simmering one does not have to keep a close eye on the stove as it will take an awful long time before pressure in the fount needs to be topped up.
    It is also easier to 'play' with the flames from low simmer to slightly hotter flame and back to simmer etc.
    Other than that, if your main use is to boil a kettle, there is no need for a regulated burner at all. Then the only advantage is its build-in pricker.
     
  17. Cookie

    Cookie United States Subscriber

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    It is my understanding that the closer the the source of regulation is to the flame the greater the flame control much like using a remote stove. Using a Nova stove for example. If we regulate the flame at the bottle there is a delay in flame adjustment making it difficult to obtain the desired result easily especially if the wind is involved due to the residual fuel in the line. By placing a valve at the base of the stove we can fine tune the flame much more easily since there is no unburnt fuel in the line downstream. On a tank mounted system such as the primus no 5 we have the issue of pressure loss as mentioned above and we get the difficulty of adjustment of the flame for simmering. As mentioned above the adjustment via pressure indoors would allow someone to release too much pressure and cause an odor and go below optimum pressure to keep a necessary blue flame (go yellow) thus resulting in more pumping. It might also result in the ability to loose the flame by pressure loss and have an immediate leak at the burner thus spewing fuel at the burner (more stink). With experience most people can master a stove without a regulated burner but it is much easier to use with the device.
     
  18. abbahco1

    abbahco1 Subscriber

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    Wouldn't the regulating burner enable you to use the stove at low flame for longer without the risk of the flame either going out or failing to maintain sufficient heat to keep the burner vapourised?
     
  19. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Some might be similar to the choice between manual and automatic transmission.
     
  20. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

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    I think @OMC nailed it above when he quoted Primus: "...the flame can be regulated and extinguished by means of the burner valve, without letting out the air which has already been pumped into the tank. Pumping, therefore, need only be carried out to maintain the necessary pressure in the tank."

    There are other associated advantages, and @abbahco1 points out a real disadvantage of the air release regulator, being the maintenance of pressure in the tank at simmer.

    Also, as someone who cooks stir fry with a Primus No. 2 often, the ability to quickly raise and lower the flame (not simmer) is possible with the air release method, but would be much easier with a regulated burner.

    Cheers

    Tony