Optimus 111b cannot get the nipple out

This is my first liquid gas stove. I have camped for years but it was family style camping and we used a double burner propane stove. We got kayaks and want to slim down on our equipment so a friend of mine gave me his old Optimus 111b. I asked him why it did not work and he said he did not know. I have found and corrected the problems that were preventing the tank from pressurizing but I cannot get the nipple out. Upon further inspection of the spindle it appears to have been turned hard enough to actually bend the part where the handle attaches so that it is no longer square. It seems to me that this action may have forced the needle up into the nipple hard enough to have warped the nipple. It this possible? If it is possible can anyone figure out a way to get the nipple off without damaging the rest of the stove? I have a new nipple, spindle, needle and several other parts that my friend gave me with the stove, possibly because he could not get it off either. I have tried spraying it with one of those penetrating oils for stuck screws and waiting a day and trying again. I have also tried heating it up. Any other ideas?

 

Hi, as you know the nipple has to come out before the cleaning needle can be extracted and the regulating spindle withdrawn.

You need a good spanner or nipple key that can get a good grip of the nipple.
if you have already tried releasing oil, the nipple is obviously well stuck in its threaded socket.

If I had this challenge I would rely on heat and differential expansion to get the first movement.

Essentially you need to keep the nipple as cool as possible (by having it surrounded by a good heat sink), whilst simultaneously heating the threaded socket to get some expansion. You can then apply soem torque to see if you can get some movement. Some professionals will say try a slight tightening movement first, just as long as you can get movement. When you do get movement, apply copious amounts of releasing oil and wind the nipple out.

Brass is soft, so don't go mad and apply too much torque, or the threads will be destroyed. If at first you don't succeed, try another heating cycle.

If this doesn't work ask again and I will give you plan B

Best Regards,
Kerophile.

 

It happens

(Some suggestions in that link).

Are you using the standard Optimus wrench that came with the stove?

'Warping' the jet in the way you suggest isn't at all likely - the teeth on the pricker rack would strip before the jet would be affected.

 

Howdy, "Stilllearning",

Welcome to CCS!! Your 111B is a great stove, and well worth fettling back to life. If you are stumped, please send me a PT, and I'll send you my address. If you send me your stove, I'll dismantle it, and send it back to you, so you can continue your restoration project. Please feel free to ask anyone here at CCS for my references. I've been here a very long time, and have done such things for many others who pop by CCS, looking for help/answers. I'm always happy to help, if you need it. Otherwise, if you spend a bit of time here at CCS, reading about the fettling of your particular stove (In the Fettling section), you can eventually get your stove up and running on your own! By the way, we are ALL "still learning" here at CCS, and we each take turns helping others, and also being helped by others!!! That's what makes CCS such a fantastic place!! Let me know if I can help, and we can go from there. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

Thanks kerophile, presscall and Doc! I finally got the blasted thing off but I had to call in the big guns. A friend of mine works on all kinds of motors and has the tools to do it. He tried everything he could think of without success until we finally drilled a hole in the nipple and used what he called an "easy out". I think it is some kind of reverse threaded drill bit but I was called away during that part so I am not sure. Anyway I am about to put it back together and I was wondering.....is there anything that I can put on the new nipple that will insure that this will not happen again? On our boat motor we use "anti seize" to make sure we can get back in to replace parts the next time but it is made to keep the bolts from melding with the aluminum of the foot. Is there something out there to do that for brass? Something that can take the heat?

 

Hi, copper anti-seize is good for both nipples and NRVs on classic stoves.
Best Regards,
Kerophile

 

Doggone it!! It seems I have one of those 'newer' 111b's that has a molded pip and I don't seem to be able to find a replacement. They sell the pips 4.5mm for the older stoves but not any for mine. They suggest at the Fettle Box that they have a gismo to convert mine to the older style pip but the link they have does not work for me. I get some page about my cookies not being turned on but they are. Anyway I need to either convert mine or find a replacement pip of the newer style. I would prefer to convert it so that I will not have this issue again. Anyone know where I can find that kit?

I also need a link to the tool I need to get the sealing cap washers out. We have a slew of allen wrenches in both american and metric but none of mine fit. Is there a certain tool I need to buy or just a certain sized wrench? I also need to replace the seals on a Sves 123 and it looks like the same tool is needed for that or is it different? Anyway if any of you know where I can find these items or if you have them and are willing to part with them please let me know!

Thanks for all of your help!!

 

HI, Stilllearning,

Those newer styled pips work OK, and not need to upgrade, unless you want to. You are needing the pip that fits into the spring, itself, and not the little brass cup, is that right? If so, send me a PT with your mailing info, and I will send you a proper pip for your 111B. Talk soon, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

The tool you speak of is a 5 sided wrench of an allen style.
Some have said a particular torx tip will fit, but care must be taken to prevent it from damaging the 5 sided hole.
I bought a tool made with 5 sides to fit.

Ken in NC

 

Hi, Stilllearning,

Check this link, for tons of excellent information on doing what you are wanting to do with your 111B. Thanks to George, and others, who contributed to this informative thread!!

https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/need-some-help-111b.30765/#post-312063

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

I just got back from the hardware store where they did not have a single allen wrench or torx tip that would fit it. Maybe the sides were stripped out before I got it. Any ideas on what to try next?

 

by "not a single allen wrench" I did mean not a one.....even if it was in a set. Sorry for the poor choice of words.

 

@Stilllearning

The 5-sided wrench needed for that job is as rare as rocking-horse s$&t.

Most people make their own by filing down an allen key to the correct shape. But if you want to buy one try contacting Gary at Bluewater stoves: http://www.bluewaterstove.com/Bluewater_Stove_Restoration/Main_Page.html

@Spiritburner

See comment above about link on The Fettle Box.

Tony

 

Hi @Stilllearning
You should not be surprised that you could not readily obtain the pentagonal section tool you sought.

The screw it fits is a "tamper resistant" fitting, installed by the manufacturer, as the SRV to which it is fitted was not intended for user maintenance, repair or adjustment.

As was mentioned earlier some indivduals have used penta-lobe bits, again intended for tamper-resistant fittings. Although one of these can be used to remove, adjust or replace the screw fitted to Optimus SRVs, they cannot be recommended as they distort the soft brass used in the screw.

A complicating factor is that the SRV screws were routinely treated on manufacture, with a thread-sealant which if not "unlocked" with heat before attempting removal, will increase the risk of screw head distortion.

The threaded screw locates and tensions the spring which pre-sets the tank pressure at which air/fuel vapour is released in a tank-overheating situation.

After any maintenance it is important to set the SRV to an appropriate release pressure, such that the stove tank remains pressurised in normal operation but progressively vents the tank, back to a safe pressure, if the tank becomes over-pressurised.

As an aside I believe that penta-lobe screws are used on air-conditioning systems, and on Apple phones and computers, again as anti-tamper devices.

Best Regards,
Kerophile.

 

@Stilllearning
As said, but more simply stated, ALLEN WRENCHES are 6 sided. The hole for removing the SRV is 5 sided. So no allen wrench is going to fit.
I would suggest you heed what Kerophile says, he is quite good at dealing with the problems we deal with here.
Take some time on this forum and read some other threads with details of work done by other members on the 111B.
Also, it helps here if you can post some photos of your stove with a focus on the parts in question.

Ken in NC

 

You could try Gary at Bluewater stoves, but I am not sure if he still makes the 5 side wrench. I must admit I bought one from him online, and it is a superb item, beautifully finished, and essential for replacing ageing SRV pips from 1960's Optimus and Primus stoves.

Cheers
Simon Foxxx
New Zealand

 

Gary still makes them . limited production numbers ,l

but an excellently made tool .
high quality , and it works .

kerry

 

Morning, All,

Has anyone heard from Stilllearning? I wonder if they gave up, or sent their stove to someone to have it fettled for them. I was PT-ing with her, but have not heard anything since I sent her links to read and understand about fettling such a stove as hers. I sent her another note this morning, and hope for an update. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

Sorry I have been so silent lately. I have been very busy helping my spouse repair our outboard motor. It has an overheating problem and it has been the dickens to diagnose! Actually we found the main problem and repaired it only to find that it caused another problem and we need to find it. Oh bother!!

Anyway I have found that sometimes if I stop trying so hard to understand things they eventually fall into place. I got a reply from Ray123 and he asked why I wanted the penta wrench and he explained that I can check the valve to make sure it is working by sticking a paperclip into the valve and seeing if it will open. Well it did and suddenly I realized that there are two seals on the cap and the one that the penta wrench opens is fine so I do not need to worry about it.

I have ordered a set of seals (actually two sets) from the Fettle Box but they have not yet arrived. I am sure that I will have plenty of questions when they do arrive but for now my stove is a paper weight but not dangerous as it is disassembled still. I ruined my needle and ordered a new one of those too.

So all in all on the Optimus 111b I have replaced the spindle, jet, graphite packing, needle and I am ordering and plan on replacing the pip and the seal on the cap where you fill the tank. Is there any other part I need to order? Also is there a trick to getting that seal off of the cap? I am thinking I might take my exacto knife to it next......

 

Hi, Stilllearning!

Great to hear from you. I did not realize that you had asked your questions here, too, and so posted my responses in our PT. Here they are again, just to make sure you get them.


YOU: Doc I totally understand how things can take precedence over the things we really want to do! I have been very busy helping my spouse repair our outboard motor. It has an overheating problem and it has been the dickens to diagnose! Actually we found the main problem and repaired it only to find that it caused another problem and we need to find it. Oh bother!!


ME: Many thanks for your understanding. I “feel your pain”, when trying to find and diagnose intermittent problems in things! Good luck on the motor!


YOU: Anyway I have found that sometimes if I stop trying so hard to understand things they eventually fall into place. I got a reply from Ray123 and he asked why I wanted the penta wrench and he explained that I can check the valve to make sure it is working by sticking a paperclip into the valve and seeing if it will open. Well it did and suddenly I realized that there are two seals on the cap and the one that the penta wrench opens is fine so I do not need to worry about it. I hope that is right? If not please let me know!


ME: OK, well, Ray123 is right, and he’s also wrong. Yes, you “can” see if the SRV (Safety Release Valve) is stuck, or frozen, by poking a paperclip into the bottom side, to see if it opens. But, you will need to make certain that the pip inside actually seals your tank, otherwise it will leak and cause problems for you.


YOU: I have ordered a set of seals (actually two sets) from the Fettle Box but they have not yet arrived. I am sure that I will have plenty of questions when they do arrive but for now my stove is a paper weight but not dangerous as it is disassembled still. I ruined my needle and ordered a new one of those too.


ME: Sounds to me like you are on the right track. As soon as the Fettle Box arrives, you may well have all the pips, seals, and gaskets that you need. So, before I send you anything, let’s see what Ross has included in his repair kit.


YOU: Where do you get your pips? My friend also gave me a Svea123 and it has a mini pump(?) so the cap on the gas container has a pip in it also. It looks like the same pip, no brass holder just a formed piece of rubber.


ME: I make most of my pips, except the molded ones, which I bought from an old Service Center, many years ago. The flat ones, like the SRV pip, I punch out of Nitrile rubber, however, Viton rubber is far better, and that’s what I will use after my supply of Nitrile runs out. The place where that caps goes, by the way, is called the “font”, or fuel tank. And, the pip inside it “should” have a brass holder, and a spring, both inside the fuel cap.So, in truth, it’s best to disassemble the fuel cap, completely in order to properly service your SRV. You can buy the special penta wrench from the Fettle Box, soon, or order one from Gary, at Bluewater Stove Restoration.


YOU: So all in all on the Optimus 111b I have replaced the spindle, jet, graphite packing, needle and I am ordering and plan on replacing the pip and the seal on the cap where you fill the tank. Is there any other part I need to order? Also is there a trick to getting that seal off of the cap? I am thinking I might take my exacto knife to it next......


ME: The seals and gaskets you have to replace are:

- pip inside the fuel cap, which is the SRV, which needs a penta wrench in order to service; pip inside the pump tube housing, which your NRV (non-return valve), and this takes a special “T” wrench to remove and replace; fuel cap gasket, which is usually as hard as a rock. I use a strong box cutter blade, or a sharp knife, to cut this gasket into pieces, then pry out all of them and replace them with a new gasket, made of Nitrile, or better yet, Viton. Ross’ kit may have all that stuff, so let’s wait until you see the kit before getting anything else.

I think that should answer your questions, but if not give me a shout, and I’ll do my best to answer. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc