Hi OMC. Thank you for the flattery. I do not consider myself most unknowable or expert on any subject. I am ever open to enlightenment. I have had many stoves but do not think of myself as a stovie. I love research, whenever I come across something different I wish to know all I can find about it. I grew up camping with Coleman products in the 1950's and started collecting and researching them in the mid 60's. I conversed with the Coleman factory and the company historian till the mid 90's. I have had boxes of xeroxed company paperwork, records, and advertising sent to me from Coleman. Through the last 50yrs or so I have shared info with many Coleman hobbyists. If I am in error I would appreciate the benefit of your knowledge. I have always felt knowledge is to pass on. Mike...
Hi, All, @OMC , you wrote that @Matty did not receive any "thanks" for posting his info, and that's not quite true. If you read what I wrote when first responding, I thanked him, in advance, when asking to see his info: "So, please do share your information, and I know that many of us are eager to learn something new!! Documentation that prove your assertions would be eagerly received here at CCS!! Thanks, and God Bless!" I'm sure that Matty will receive many thanks as this thread progresses, so all will turn out quite well, with no apologies needed, IHMO. The thread is moving along nicely, and when a solid conclusion has been reached, all those who participated, including yourself, will be getting sincere thanks, I'm certain. Just my two cents, for what it's worth..... Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
Coleman stove pre1923 yes BUT drift alert: Accounting for above, is the impression... No.1 is 1st Camp Stove Coleman released... may be. While searching pre 1923 Coleman I found a stove. Problem is, the STOVE patent (1439466) applied for in 1921, granted in 1922... It was a 1 burner (woohoo) and Bill Coleman being a lantern guy looks to me like he uses a lantern tank for his 1921 stove... Ya know, I don't recall seeing or hearing about that stove before (such revelations on CCS are not unprecedented ... where have I heard that)? Ahh, I doubt this is 1st mention, it twas easy to find that 1921 Coleman stove patent app. thx omc
Like I said, I understand Coleman has no record of shipping a stove prior to 1923. The man that said that to me said to let him know if you find evidence otherwise.
What do they mean by no record of shipping stoves prior to 1923? Shipping for the factory to the dealers, dealers to customers, or factories to customers? I am betting it is the latter. The dealers would have needed to have them before 1923 if they advertised them in 1922. Dealers could have shipped stoves without Coleman having records. Just my thoughts..
Did Coleman have a habit of selling third party products through what would seem to be one of their very own outlets? HD
That Townley ad (back on page 6) shows a "date" early in 1922, but I do not think it is meant to be a publication date. I have copies of a Townley catalog pages 892 through 898 from the same catalog, and the "date" doesn't agree on all of the pages. Page 892 shows "4-9-25" Page 893 shows "8-6-25" Page 894 shows "4-9-25" Page 895 shows "4-2-25" Page 896 shows "4-2-25" Page 897 shows "5-21-25" Page 898 shows "7-22-20" That would lead me to think that those numbers aren't reliable for dating, and may have been for some internal purpose. The hardware catalog pages found on eBay aren't reliable, and some are obviously mis-dated, as can be seen by the Coleman items inside. One large volume seller has stated that he dates some of his hardware catalogs based on the car parts found inside because the catalog itself wasn't clearly dated. Hiram Strong's Coleman shipping records show the first Coleman #1 camp stoves being shipped in Feb. 1923. There were 12 with oven, and 6 without shipped that month. Prior to that, there are no camp stoves in the records. I have seen dated Coleman catalogs for a gasoline kitchen range badged by Coleman and manufactured by the American Stove Co. as early as 1914. Coleman began shipping their own "3 & 4-Hole High Stoves" in 1922, as well as urn burners and gas plants, but no camp stoves.
Not a habit in any way. There may have been some shenanigans that could possibly be tied (but hasn't been) to the Los Angeles branch back in the later 20's when a PreWay(?) stove was badged as a Coleman #8 and sold via a Los Angeles hardware company. I don't think WC Coleman had anything to do with that though. At least two specimens of this stove have turned up in recent years.
Back to the Townley ad...while looking at more eBay catalog pages, I have seen a Townley ad with two different dates with different years - "23" and "25" - on the same page. The seller went with 1924.
Hi, @StanDahl , Many thanks for joining in on this discussion, Sir! I've very much enjoyed reading all the contributions shared so far, and think we have rather solidly resolved the dating of the Coleman #1 stove, and a few other questions, as well. Research is wonderful, and sharing research is even more wonderful, as we can all learn together!!! I do believe that there will always be "something" that we will never learn, i.e., possible "shenanigans", as you called them, from a single distributor, or seller. We still see that happening together, with current sellers doing some mix and match, and changing things on a certain model, without documentation, or paperwork denoting those changes. So, it's fairly easy to see that this also happened back in the early days of Coleman history. Thanks, again, for joining in this discussion, and I hope we see you at the upcoming CASG, which will be held this next April, at the Midhills Campground, North of Joshua Tree NP. Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
With all due respect Doc, the dating of the #1 stove may be tied down further, but I don't think the Ad which Matty found has been answered. I take StanDahl's initial answer to be that Coleman did not sell third party products in it's own showrooms, and I don't think any shenanigans, which the store or it employees may have been involved in the later 1920s, explains why it is advertising third party products (possibly as it own) on a regular basis in 1922. HD
Hi, HighlandDweller, I was thinking we had decided that Matty's ad, interesting as it is, has been shown to be that of a Distributor, and not from Coleman. And, that Coleman did not, in fact make AGM stoves, as AGM was already making them for themselves. Did I miss something here? Thanks, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc P.S. No worries about disagreeing with me, either, as we're just kicking the "informational football" around to see what we can learn. This is an excellent discussion, and I'm enjoying it immensely.
With the above in mind it seems to me that the ads are not that of a distributor, but of a sales branch directly owned by Coleman. I can not say if Coleman made AGM stoves, I can only say that it seems Coleman were selling them. HD
Mike your reply is well put and well received. I appreciate all previous content incl Standahl's latest input as well. So thx and to all, Coleman items followed various paths to buyers. I've nothing new really, sorry for kinda repeating myself, in light of latest, I too am seeing > "Coleman Lamp Company (...lamps, lanterns. stoves...)" ads. If we could place ourselves c1920 (we can't), it may involve: manufacturers, catalog sales, distributors, jobbers, retailers, traveling salesman etc. Globally and beyond c1920, and beyond Coleman... as general practice to boost sales, manufacturers provided their own catalogs AND ads in key publications esp (c1920) in other catalogs(Townley and Hardware World are 2). Aside from dating them, I view the ads as a non-issue. I await Matty or someone possibly firming up dates on early Coleman stove ads (or not). It is conceded No.1s shipped Feb 1923, there's much support for that being the earliest date associated w/Coleman No.1 (plenty pushback by some to even consider anything 1922). thx omc
I think the key to the Coleman Distributor in Los Angeles selling third party products lies in the fact that the owner of the original company (Cole Light and Sales) was retained as the manager/chief operations officer of the new operation. If he had previously been selling products from multiple manufacturers I suspect he continued what had been a successful practice. If he was making money for the company (Coleman) they may well have allowed him to carry on, at least until Coleman got its camp stove line selling. It would be interesting to see ads from the Los Angles operation from the next 2-5 years and see when the AGM stoves drop out.
What Cottage Hill Bill said pretty much sums it up. A Coleman Company anniversary newspaper says that Floyd Cole was in ill health and wanted out of at least the lighting part of the business. Coleman bought out Cole Brothers and put John Graham from Wichita in charge. He likely sold off remaining Cole Bros. inventory. Cole Brothers wasn't connected to Coleman and was never a branch of Coleman. Perhaps they had an agreement that allowed Floyd Cole to run the stove section of the business and he put out the ads with the Coleman name attached? Coleman didn't have showrooms or company stores. They had offices and distributors. Most of the sales were at hardware companies or retailers. Retailers were encouraged to put large Coleman displays in prominent places in their stores, and had lots of display materials and flyers available. The company published a newspaper for their sales staff and for retailers who sold Coleman products. These newspapers constantly pushed new sales techniques and showed off examples of retailers sales displays. Coleman and other companies sent retailers sheets with images of their products to be used in the retailers advertising. They may have sold the printers linotype blocks also, which retailers didn't always update regularly, and it shows in the hardware catalogs where outdated images were sometimes used. I find the LA Times ads interesting, but I'd like to see the entire pages and dates, not just cropped images. I wouldn't be surprised if standards were looser then, and I'm not convinced that what was printed in a newspaper was necessarily sanctioned by the Coleman company even if the company name was prominently displayed.
