All, Relatively recently unanswered questions have posted and worthy of discussion imo. I regret and apologize that I myself do not have a lot to offer. The little I can add will invite even more unanswered questions and discussion so... I post here. Stove forum: open discussion where readers interested in the variants of the Radius 21 can please offer any and all questions and comments they might have. The focus of post being to better understand the topic and what additional variants have emerged and where examples fit in chronological sequence. The Feb. of 2012 variants of Radius 21 is one of the excellent @stejar reference posts. Stefan, your intent was describing 6 examples to help us better understand. You have done that and more, yours is the most helpful Radius 21 post to-date. A credit to your generous efforts. On behalf of members and over 10,000 readers I thank you for the excellent content you have contributed in ref. section. In his post Stefan offers a sequence of 6 examples (1 - 6) and mentions potential for more examples, he suggests, in addition to #1-6 (possibly a #0, a #0.5, a #3.5 and #7). Closing with "...look forward to more models found and described." Going forward we can agree, to "describe" examples is key, as he has shown us how to describe differences. >>>Sep 2014 Ian offers that 2 more variants have posted, a follow up to his comment would be to "describe" what makes those 2, if original, different than 1-6. >>> Beginning April 2016 @Northern Light has specific interests and I hope you also engage this post (and can take the lead on this with my blessing for that matter). >>> Back in May 2017 @Kwatsum contributed by adding his Radius No.21R and asking: "Where does the R stand for? Does anyone have more info in the (sub) type?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefan has not replied recently for any number of reasons which is fine. He presented an excellent reference saying just that "If nothing else I have highlighted the fact that I have found six models of Radius 21 (so far)..." At this point, recently there are more questions than answers (>>> questions above). This is open discussion and the next post might be yet another "good question" which is all-good. Participants can multi-task, please comment on which ever above question or re other No.21 differences. thanks omc
My own little comment is to @Kwatsum , Your 21R is early and very interesting, I've not seen it and have no further detail to offer you. Thank you for posting it. Note we (you and I from now) have benefit of hindsight. Yours is a "No.21R". I like your approach thus far but without additional info forthcoming in the "No.21" ref. post, you might eventually do separate post of yours as Radius No.21R ? If so whenever that is, in your 21R post you can mention yours seems to share the vintage (chronology) of Stefan's No.21 type 1 (link his post) and note: Yours is like Stefan's type 1 [earlier than *1935] both with: same shooting start logo atop tank same normal (non-recessed) seat for filler [*suggested recessed filler began NET Sept 1934] same knurling and text on filler lid and pump lid same slots & hatch windshield -------------- It is good to further describe yours, if it does compare to the Type 1: if yours has multi-language text on side? what is the text stamped into the bottom? and as Northern Light asked, if your burner might be original is it type 1? (2 or 3?). So that's the my comment. More pieces of the Radius 21 puzzle are bound to help us better understand where examples fit in-sequence. thanks omc
A few thoughts for @OMC The so called type 1-6 are the more common versions of Radius 21. From what I have seen, there are many variations not covered in detail so far regarding the Radius 21. There are at least 8 unique versions of the tank that are from 1930 - 1963 and probably more. There are at least 4 burner types (I have four types in my collection). There are 4 windshields. There are more variations on tank lids regarding knurling and text. The same goes for other parts like the pump lid. There are lots of instructions out there with printed and sometimes stamped dates on them. I think if collectors that have them could publish the dates on them it would give us much better estimates of the date the stoves were made. BTW I used to live in Springfield Illinois
Thank you Northern Light, I would have welcomed a correction to my obvious mistake when I referred to Kwatsum's 21 as early. His tank is recessed at filler. You suggest year range 1930-63 with 8 versions of tank. Tentatively the no.21 production run is c1920-63. Earliest reference for 21 I'm aware of is 1920 catalog (I've no idea of 1st year of the 21 but FYI 1st Radius stove of any model shipped in 1914). +1 w/your comment re posting of dated instructions will help. A "focus on the tank" first, when attempting to identify any differences is an excellent approach. Fellow stovies will be interested in what is difference with the 2 additional ones you suggest. I've actually not revisited the examples w/sole focus on tanks. To your credit when i further review I'm reminded (of the 1-6 examples) only the type 2&3 are tanks recessed at filler. Are either of the 2 additional you're suggesting re the earlier tanks w/non-recessed filler, by chance? ---------- As much as I definitely agree that a tank focus is best, i have some detail re the additional 2 Iani suggested. My initial impression of what he spotted as different are filler caps and a pump. Sam's 21 has a pump, we do not see others like it yet. My own approach would be remain mindful of this example as an anomaly. FWIW it is very similar to the 1921,24 210 pump but that is not what it is, we may yet find more Radius like it (or it may remain one example, I dunno). ---------- My following comments are focused on only the filler caps and only on earlier tanks non-recessed at filler. The other example Iani notes, Shedman's 21, I expect you too are fully aware of that type pressure release. It is the same as Sam's and others and was not included among Stefan's 6 variants. as seen here , here and here Iani, unavailable lately, he credits Stefan's excellent post as he posted additional content. He also attempted some dating of his 21s posted. My impression is he thought his 1920 No.21 (first of 3 links above) reflected the earliest example (known to-date then). Many agree and I think you and I and Stefan agree that filler cap above can be included. We also may agree with Iani that it is the earliest type? If so, as a filler cap type, we could refer to it as filler cap type 0. more to come tag @Northern Light @Kwatsum
Northern Light, I do further agree with you, and another filler cap (again only referring to caps on earlier non-recessed tanks): seen here , here and here If we agree it too is a filler cap type to add, being pre-Ltd, we could refer to it as filler cap type 2.5. ------------------ The focus of the little review I've been doing (and may continue) has kept focus on the earlier tanks. So I'll not pursue this next one further myself but i will offer for consideration: If Northern or others think it too is a filler cap type to add, it might be referred to as filler cap type 3.5. CCS is of English language I want to express my thanks for readers and those who enage and for who English is not their language THANK YOU, if you have info please don't hesitate to chime-in. That may be it from me on this for awhile guys, take-it-away, i'll try to follow, thx omc PS Northern Light, re my comment "You suggest year range 1930-63 with 8 versions of tank." To clarify it is not at all my intent to question your 1930-63 range for the 8 tanks you're aware of, that is good. My comment is to add to your comment ... as additional on-topic info, not to disagree or correct. When i reread it, it could be misunderstood, my intent is not disagreement, on the contrary, i welcome that as-is and hope we hear more re the eight 1930-63 tanks . thx again
OMC, The 2 additional tanks that I know about are easy to define. The 21R is one of them. There is also a transitional tank that shows up now and then that is from about 1939-40. I will see if I can publish some examples. I have seen several. Are there more tanks than 8 produced between 1930 and 1963? The 4 burner types are easy as well. I have four types. In different sizes as well. The same graphics also show up on the 1/37 burners. I have not yet compared them with the larger ones. Are there more types than 4 produced between 1930 and 1963? Regarding Kwatsuns R21, it might be made slightly before 1934. (Sorry about not pointing out the recssed filler lid) I have a Radius 21 with dated instructions from 1934 with a recessed filler lid. I believe 1934 was a transitional year for many Radius products, but I am not shure about the 21. (1933?) I have another example from 1931-32 without the recessed filler lid. Same as Stefans type 1. However I have 2 versions of type 1 So its not as simple with the details as in the article. There are many variations that are not described. The so called type 4 - 6 were used by the military and delivered by Optimus after 1963. They often have mixed parts from different generations. The civilian examples are often better as references. Regarding the period between 1914 and 1929 it gets slightly more difficult. As far as I know there are 2 known catalogues. There is no possibility of cross referencing lanterns and catalogues for lanterns. There are few surviving examples in good condition. WWI interupted Radius early on. But with some hard work it might be possible as well. The 1920s tins are quite different. The tanks are a good baseline. Why not start as early as possible? The filler lids also offer quite a bit of variation. I have not counted them yet
The 4 types of the 0/37 burner are of course complemented by the 4/37 UFO burner with steel or brass flame spreaders, which makes 5 types.
@OMC I wonder if this might be the earliest Radius 21 example at CCS? https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/radius-no-21-1920s.27432/ The graphics on the tin are referencing Primus early graphics from ca 1915. The later 1920s examples are more common and in line with the catalogues, since they have the logo on top from 1920 and 1925.
Northern Light, Sam checks in from time to time and will be pleased to hear that you're considering his as candidate for oldest 21 posted to-date. @idahostoveguy If it is of a vintage earlier than all others, then, I view his pump in different light, if more of this earliest vintage emerge they too may also have that pump (as of today we've none other to compare it to), if you're right. I confess I've paid little attention to tins until your above comment. I agree, a tin, also w/none other to compare it to. What you suggest makes sense, I will go out on a limb here, bear with me. Catalogs may use earlier images/illustrations when publishing newer catalog. They do not use images of item not yet available. SO Stoveuser junior's 21 seems to me is a match to the 1920 catalog dating his c1920 or later. If tin and certain features of Sam's pre-date juniors... then Sam's, as you say may be the oldest and if it is it likely pre-dates 1920. If so that also back dates the tentative production run date from c1920 to pre-1920 - 63. thanks omc
@OMC The clasps on the tins are different. This might be what is featured in the 1920 catalogue: https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/radius-no-21-1920.23525/ As far as I can tell Stoveuser junior's 21 has the 1925 tin. I have seen a few with the same style tin and also in good condition. They match the 1925 catalogue. I have not seen the Radius "shooting star" (comet) graphics on the side of the tank in the 1920 catalogue. I have not seen the 1925 catalogue style tank with the filler lid and air screw. Another variation regarding the tanks is the actual shape and not the graphics. Some types are more rounded. Do you think this is a usable new baseline with the 10 or 11 tanks from pre 1920 to 1963? The other details can be added like burners, tins, spirit bottles, tools etc.
Northern, I just wanted to reply to you and oh crap (I'm getting glimpse how you haven't counted filler caps!). I had to download images onto laptop and then zoom-in but it does seem to me Junior's filler cap can also be added. Type 1 similarity w/the shorter thumbscrew and smaller text closer to center but has diamond knurling of a type2. If so, as a filler cap type, we could refer to Junior's as filler cap type 1.5. "IF" we were to continue add / build on Stefan's 3, we now have filler cap types: 0, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5 and 3 and maybe more filler caps to come. more comment to follow
all, and to Northern, You kind sir certainly have advanced the topic with 21 specifics here. All due respect given for Stefan's original 6 (like hockey fans respect "original 6" ). No doubt discussing this is revealing to many of us that there is much info that can be added, some basic detail as well. YES for short answer re tank types and a usable new baseline. One exception as mentioned I would set 21R aside and where ever it is posted link to 21 chronology for approx. year range for 21R, this imo. This is ongoing discussion here which proves helpful to develop chronologies imo (it can be a slog and not for everybody but despite critics revelations do emerge and we make progress on-topic). Going forward new 21 details help answer questions and provide info for future posts re the 21s. I'll take your word and Iani's is match for 1920 catalog, junior's for 1925, turns out Sam's is still pre-1920 as is the 21 production run (oh, I knew that... ). Above you have suggested: tanks and "Why not start as early as possible?" Yes, why not. You've mentioned 3 very early examples. We'll defer to any sequence and number of examples you want to further suggest in a relist , please do correct me if i'm wrong, but for a tank-focus discussion, beginning w/earliest known say ie the 4 below, tentatively, I think all align w/Stefan's type 1 ?, early and not yet recessed at filler: Sam's type 1 tank older pump and type 0 filler cap (tin & stove may pre-date all others) Iani's type 1 tank type 0 filler cap Stefan's type 1 tank, type 1 filler cap Junior's type 1 tank, type 1.5 filler cap additions, corrections most certainly welcome, take it away thanks omc
above I did say "we now have filler cap types: 0, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5 and 3" my bad , it should of course have been: 0, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3 and 3.5 and maybe more filler caps to come. At some point one list w/images (to-date) can and will get posted here or elsewhere. thanks omc
@Northern Light , all, I had hoped to hear more re (additional) different No.21 "tanks" but ... that may depend on how we might define "tanks"? For me, it is the bare tank without any parts. Myself, putting the 21R aside, I've so far noticed only the six No.21 tank types that Stefan had described. My thanks to him again as his 2012 post remains an excellent guide to "ID" approx. age of a 21. As I looked at several 21s and review his post. I note a quite *obvious difference that does not get much focus. Using same info with different approach a checklist might be created to ID No.21s. Checklist focus is *"Made in Sweden" location on top of tank >>>>Is "made in Sweden" located to the left or to the right of filler cap >>> if right and... > does have recessed filler it is type 3 > does not have recessed filler it is type 4 >>> if left and... >> does have recessed filler it is type 2 >> does not have recessed filler it is Type 1, 5 or 6 > if "Ltd" is not present it is type 1 (ie check bottom). > if it has Arabic script below "made in Sweden" it is type 6 > if it does not have Arabic script below "made in Sweden" it is type 5 (does have "Ltd") Northern, I'm appreciate of your input and do still hope to learn more re different tanks. I bumped the post and only just now created the check list (with good chance I made mistake or overlooked something). The check list may need update, and if there are tanks to add, it will need a re-do or we can 86 it all together. (... btw only 3 & 4 have "Radius Ltd No.21" on tank) thx omc @stejar
@OMC I think I have a fairly good idea now about the various common Radius 21 versions. I have checked a lot of examples not published on CCS. There are at least 11 base versions of the tank not counting the nickel plating. 4 base types of windscreens. More burner versions for type 1 - 6 as well as the early examples. A large number of tanklids. At least 3 types of early tins before the red and blue versions.
Northern, That's great. Do you by chance have a tentative sequence you would place the 11 tanks in? If yes, do/post details how you like, eventually. Might I suggest? ... to build on stejar's 1-6 list (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) with 1, 1.5, 2 and so on or 1, 1a, 2.. whatever, but it makes sense, to me anyway, to compliment / coordinate your additional findings with the sound list stejar has established. Use his #s for the examples he has already documented your 2 and his 2 being the same etc. I thank you either way and no doubt this is a discussion we fellow stovies will continue to develop. best regards omc
BUMP old thread The 21R aside (is not a "21"). Multiple filler caps aside for now and not yet factoring-in the various tins. Re stejar's list, includes details for 6 tanks, types 1 - 6: IIRC we could consider including an "early type 1" (or "type 0") as it seems Sam's pre-dates stejar's "type 1" example. Above Northern suggested there are addl. No.21 tank example(s) to add / insert into the type 1 - 6 list. ------------------ @Svein Aune Welcome! Thank you for posting. I apologize in-advance and note translation may be a challenge. In this "stove forum" thread Q&A and discussion is encouraged here re types of Radius 21s. You have inspired my post today with your latest Radius 21 example: "I have a type 2 from February 7th. 1938" , and that date with stamped onto instructions after printing. source My impression is you have a c. 1938 Radius 21 stove as well that came with with the instructions. If yes your example could be a key c. 1938 Radius timeline reference. A compliment to the excellent list Stejar had created. Does your type 2 fit or where / how does it fit? ...when compared to stejar's list: Type 2 "...probably introduced later than September 1934" ? Type 3 "... introduced in 1938 or later when” Radius” became “Radius Ltd”. The shooting star is not used any longer and instead the “Radius Ltd” is prominent and writing in Arabic also appears on the top of the tank." source ------------------------------ Svein, After reviewing my own and many more online I came up with a checklist to ID, what type (1 thru 6) one might have in hand. If you have yours in hand this checklist should also align with yours being a type 2. Checklist is also tank focused, specifically: the location of "Made in Sweden" on top of tank Is "made in Sweden" located to the left or to the right of filler cap? IF "made in Sweden" is to the right and the tank ... > ... does have recessed filler, it is type 3 > ... does not have recessed filler, it is type 4 IF "made in Sweden" is to the left and the tank ... > ... does have recessed filler, it is type 2 > ... does not have recessed filler, it is Type 1, 5 or 6 IF it is Type 1, 5 or 6 and ... >> ... if "Ltd" is not present, it is type 1 (ie check the bottom). >> ... if it has Arabic script below "made in Sweden" it is type 6 >> ... if it does not have Arabic script below "made in Sweden" it is type 5 (does have "Ltd"). 1025 views
Hi, Made in Sweden yo the left of the filler cap and a recessed filler. No Ltd markings type 2. I will clean it up and take some pictures.
