He needs to Contract some elf's or Santa even. I truly hope someone from MSR, Primus, Or Optimus looks at this site. I think in time they will find out and maybe wise up. Maybe shoot the accountants and start building better production stoves. But this is all wishful thinking I fear. Cheers Jeff
Well, if they're not too busy counting $$$ they probably picked up a lot of improvements from our discussions.....really. I would think CCS members could have contributed a lot toward either of the companies in improving their design concepts and accessories. Someone make a shout to their R&D to read some threads here. Hopefully he or she is a stovie just like US. Ron
I believe they'll make all the improvements they can under the constraints of their profit margin. Though the caps (dragon tamer) are an excellent improvement, companies like MSR, Primus, etc., won't be adding the extra time, materials and labor. If they do, the cost of the stove will go up and maybe fewer will actually sell. The flame spreaders are the quickest and cheapest route to building the stove. No holes to drill. No seams to weld. No extra material to make them and they are done, literally in no time, comparatively. Nothing against Bernie's cap, they are the best in the world, but from a business point of view, there would have to be demand that was over-whelming for that to become part of manufacturing and selling. 2 pennies sam
Hello guys! I'm new to this forum. I've been using a gas stove before, but after a trip to Cyprus, where I couldn't find any threaded gas canisters (well I did find them in a very big hypermarket, on the last day of our trip), I've decided I have to get a gasoline stove. I also like to travel by motorcycle, so I wanted a stove that would work on the (always available) unleaded auto gas. After a big of deliberation, I've settled on the MSR Dragonfly. Got the stove from ebay, brand new in a box. Tested it to boil a liter of water nearby my garage, everything worked fine. I disassembled, checked and reassembled the stove to be sure I can do this in the field. Then we went to a week-long vacation to Crete. Surely enough there was no threaded gas canisters sold anywhere, so it was a good decision to bring the Dragonfly with us. We lived in the hotel, so I just wanted to use the stove a little bit, to test it. On the first use we boiled some water to make tea, on a sandy beach. Afterward there was a bit of sound everywhere (on the stove and pump), that I cleaned off with a rag, and made sure none got into the insides of the pump. Then, in a few days, we were in a secluded valley (or maybe this was a gorge, actually), and I decided to make some tea again. The weather was warm, but not particularly hot. I was a bit surprised when I felt no resistance when operating the pump. Removed the plunger, and noticed that the pump cup was separated from the plunger and still inside the pump's body, at the very bottom. This is the latest model pump with a rubber pump cup. Carefully pried the pump cup out and put it on the plunger. The cup looks new, there is no visible damage or deformation or whatever on it. Same goes with the plunger. I put the back together, inserted the plunger back into the pump, fully inserted the plunger, and apparently when I pulled it back, the pump cup has separated from the plunger once again. I've tried this around 3 times and each time the pump cup won't stay with the plunger, but rather would separate and stay in the bottom of the pump. I gave up and constructed a small fireplace out of some stones to boil the tea water. Upon returning, I once again removed the plunger , fished out the pump cup and put them back together, and now it's pressurizing ok and the pump cup is not separating from the plunger. I wonder why is it so temperamental. I wonder if there's something that should hold the cup to the plunger? Maybe I should use a bit of thin wire, a metal snap-ring on top of it, or something? I wouldn't want the same problem to happen again in the field. Would appreciate any advice from you folks. Can provide photos of the plunger and the cup, if necessary.
just looked at the manual at https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/13119 If you believe that you never replace the cup but that cant be right. I would of expected a spring clip of some sort
Hi, heilong, This is the first time that I've heard about the problem that you're having. Usually, the pump cup does not come off. You might do well to simply wait and see if the problem continues to occur. However, if you continue to have problems here are some options: 1. Buy the MSR DragonFly Expedition Service Kit. The Expedition Service kit will have a new pump cup in it. You will also of course have a variety of other parts and spares if anything else should go wrong with your stove. This is probably the easiest option. 2. You could order a new leather pump cup from Sefa who is a member of this forum. 3. You could also buy an old pump off of eBay or something like eBay, take the pump cup out of the old pump, and put it into your new pump cup. In my opinion, the leather pump cups were a better product than the new synthetic rubber pump cups. Before you put the leather pump cup into your pump, you should oil the leather. Olive oil works well, mineral oil will work, and I'm sure other oils like neatsfoot oil and the like will work too. I've bought some damaged pumps and have disassembled them and used the pump leather with good results. HJ
Thanks for your helpful replies, guys! I indeed want to get an Expedition Service Kit as I like to have spares for my stuff. Being in Russia, it's not too easy to get things like this. I've checked and our local dealer doesn't offer these kits (a usual occurrence). USA-based web shops won't sell MSR items internationally due to some agreement they have with Cascade Designs. I'm looking for another shop (e.g. a UK one) that will sell them to me. Anyway, I would expect the new stove to operate for quite a while before I need these spares. The pump cup I have looks brand new - no cracks or deformation, so no idea why it could come off. Maybe there should be a spring clip or a snap ring that is missing on my plunger, for some reason? Can any Dragonfly owners confirm if there's anything like this holding the pump cup on the plunger? I'm thinking of buying a snap ring in an auto parts store and installing it on top of the pump cup - can't see how it could harm anything. What are the advantages/disadvantages of having a leather pump cup? And why do you think they switched to synthetic rubber on the new models? Thanks!
If you would like to get an Expedition Service Kit, perhaps you could try eBay. It depends on each individual seller as to whether or not they're willing to ship to Russia. You might also try contacting Cascade Designs/MSR, explaining to them that the service kit is not sold where you live. They might be willing to ship you a service kit or they might be able to direct you to a dealer in your area. I have no idea why MSR switched from leather pump cups to synthetic rubber cups. Perhaps they wanted to eliminate the maintenance required by leather cups which need to be oiled periodically. Perhaps synthetic cups are cheaper to manufacture. Personally, I think switching from a leather pump cup to a synthetic rubber pump cup was not a good idea. In hot weather, the synthetic pump cups are known to bind, rendering the stove unusable. Also, if something goes wrong with a leather pump cup, one can open up the pump, reshape the leather by hand, oil the cup, and reassemble the pump. I've been able to get some badly deformed leather pump cups to operate. With a synthetic rubber pump cup, if anything goes wrong, you have no choice but to replace the entire pump cup. If I'm miles and miles away from any dealership that sells MSR pump cups, then I'm in real trouble. I no longer have a stove; I have a useless dead weight. There is no spring clip or anything like that that holds the pump cup onto the pump shaft. The pump cup affixes directly to the pump shaft. However, I see no reason why a spring clip wouldn't work. HJ
This is unrelated to pumps, but I should mention that the Dragonfly requires more maintenance than other MSR stoves. The Dragonfly's two valve design is more susceptible to carbon build up and needs to be cleaned more often. It is best to use the cleanest burning fuel available. Coleman type fuel is the best if it is available. I don't know what the correct name is in Russia. I believe auto gasoline is called benzine in Russia, so the name for Coleman type fuel might be something with the word "benzine" in it. In Hungary, I believe Coleman type fuel is called Seb benzin or Tiszta benzin. In Bulgaria, ekstraktsionen benzin. In the Czech Republic, Technicky benzin. In Poland, Benzyna ekstrakcyjna. Kerosene is more widely available and is also an excellent choice for the Dragonfly. There are often two grades of kerosene available. For example we in the US have K-1 (best) and K-2. In the UK, the better grade is called paraffin and the lower grade is called kerosene. You want the best grade possible. Diesel, Automotive gasoline, etc. will work, but they will not burn cleanly, and your stove will need more frequent maintenance. Personally, I would not use unleaded auto gasoline except when there is simply nothing else available. HJ
Thanks a lot for your replies, Jim! I'll add a snap ring to my pump for now, and try to get my hands on an expedition service kit, plus a couple of leather pump cups. I'll get some white gas (for some reason called "benzine 'kalosha'" in Russia, dunno why) when I can find it, however I suppose I will be using unleaded auto gas every once in a while. After all, this is the reason I got myself a liquid fuel stove. I'll probably use a gas canister stove where canisters are readily available.
I agree with your view on why MSR may not have implemented a cap like the dragon tamer. From what I have seen on Gary's website and on this forum this cap is the greatest thing to happen to the Dragonfly since..... the dragonfly! However adding something so complex to the stove would drive the price up and push it out of the intended price bracket. It would be nice for it to be offered as an option if Gary ever decided to stop making them. I know one thing is for sure I am going to start harassing Gary for a Dragon tamer as of October 1st!
Doc, I'm just curious, what is the best multifuel stove in your version. I'm myself still take MSR Dragonfly as the best multifuel stove. The quiet enough BTU, simmer capability, a wide range of multifuel options. Sure it lacks the capability to burn gas/LPG/butane-propane, but a little nozzle drilling job will eliminate that limitation. The loud noise is solved by Dragontamer and Quietstove#107. It is not as stormproof as MSR Windburner or MSR Reactor, but we can thereby set up a quite isolated windshield. I'm still looking for the best multifuel stove that can burn Kerosene, White Gas, Petrol, Gas/LPG/Propane/Butane and is able to simmer. And, another opinion would be valuable. Best regards, IM
Thank you @snwcmpr . Pardon me to forgot to mention @Doc Mark on post MSR Dragonfly and also forgot to add the question mark.
@Iming Muslimin, Thanks for linking me to your question. And, thanks to my good friend @snwcmpr , for making sure I could see your question! As to what stove I would consider the best of breed when it comes to burning multiple fuels, my first, last, and probably always choice will be a good MSR X-GK and probably the EX version. I have burned quite a few fuels in those stoves, and feel that it stands above all others in it's ability to burn some pretty nasty stuff, and live to tell the tale! It's also easy to maintain and clean on the trail, and, with the help of a good simmering plate, can do sausages and sauces very well, indeed. The DF is far better at easy simmering, BUT, I have never considered the DF to be in the same league as the X-GK stoves when it comes to dealing with less than stellar fuels. It's a great stove, and I love it. But NOT for burning old, nasty, and odd fuels around the World. I fear that, trying to do that, with a DF, is just asking for trouble, and lots of clogging. Just my 'tuppence, but there you have it. As an aside, I do have some Primus stoves, like the Omnifuel and others, that can burn cartridge gas, as well as other fuels, but I've not used them for as long as the MSR X-GK stoves, and therefore have not built up the trust necessary for using them, "when the chips are down". I also love the MSR Whisperlite Universal, and it, too, can burn cartridge fuels fairly well. But, IMHO, it's not as robust as the X-GK stoves, and so would probably not take one for an emergency situation. But, maybe with more use, over the years, I'll grow to trust the Universal as much as I do the X-GK. But, somehow, I rather doubt it. I hope that answers your question about which would be my favorite, but if you have more questions, please give me a shout, and I'll do some digging to see if I can find answers. Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
@Iming Muslimin First, thanks for getting Doc to speak positively about a multifuel Whisperlite. It's taken a few decades for him to shake off the nasty first taste. :-) Second, how multifuel do you really need? I saw an adventure driver/camper recommend a Coleman 533, specifically versus Doc's favourite (and mine) MSR XGK. His basis: unleaded petrol is available anywhere you can drive a car. The 533 is simple to use. Maintenance involves replacing the generator periodically, when the stove stops running. In that case, the feature is the ability to burn car fuel. The only other conceivable fuel which would be available when gasoline was not would be a jet fuel. The US military use JP8, a standard of what is essentially kerosene. If you have to walk in (can't fly, can't drive) there will be no fuel (burn wood) or someone will have carried kerosene for their hurricane lantern and Primus-style stove. Or you are on a boat. In no case does burning a butane-based fuel make travel or fuel more available. It only improves simmer control, and costs weight and money. The most weight- and cost- effective solution is to carry a separate lightweight stove. Or to forget simmering. Or to work out how to lower temp on your XGK or similar. Or, simplest for you, to pack a Dragonfly.
Ahaha, it sounds that both of you are live near to each other. All the scenarios you described are exactly my reasons. Often to mountains 3000 meters asl or higher, sometimes beach, or by car, or swamps, or river. Or I have to fly to another island where a gas canister is prohibited to take on the plane. The possibility of an explosion because the fuel tank is too near the heat source, is quite scary for me. I read some experiences by other members about Svea 123 bursts flame tall unexpectedly. Does Coleman 533 pretty safe from such risk? Suddenly I remember an outdoor shop in another city (5 hours drive time from where I live) that sells a secondhand XGK EX at pretty much a low price. While waiting for the right time to go there, I will do my homework 'research' on the XGK EX. Many thanks to both of you @Doc Mark and @Scrambler for your kind response and some enlightening conversations.
The Coleman stoves are very safe. Just follow the instructions. Don't use a very large pan on it. The Svea 123 has a safety vent that can fountain fuel, which ignites. This is frightening but not highly dangerous. But the Coleman stoves are not designed to self-pressurise. They do not fountain unless they severely overheat.
Greetings, @Iming Muslimin, You wrote: "Ahaha, it sounds that both of you are live near to each other." Actually, @Scrambler lives in Australia, and I live the mountains of Southern California! But, he is right in that I have often railed about how crappy the very first Whisperlite International was, when trying to burn kerosene! That stove failed, miserably, when my wife and I were high in the mountains, trying to backpack from Mexico to Canada on the Pacific Crest Trail, 2,650 miles long! The second version of that stove, the Whisperlite International 600 is a MUCH better stove, and actually CAN burn kerosene quite well. That first version, had a generator loop that was far too small to reliably burn kerosene over a long period of time. I do trust the second version, and as I wrote above, the Universal version. But, for your needs, when you might be having to burn some really poor fuels, if that is all that is available, I'd still go with the X-GK EX/ Just my choice, and I'm sure others will have their own suggestions for you. Good luck on your decision, and have fun on your future travels. Sounds like you have to excellent adventures planned!! Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
Greetings, @Doc Mark and @Scrambler, I kinda agree. I remember having to clean MSR Dragonfly thoroughly after every 1-week use of kerosene, it was to boil 600 ml of water twice a day. And if I use the dirty biodiesel, it's almost certainly clogged after a day, so I have to clean it every 2 days. The most clogged part is the needle/screwed thread on the stove's valve. I have to scratch it with a sharp needle. I think this part is the reason how MSR Dragonfly has precision control of the gasified fuel. I think I have to test how toxic the area when burning using multifuel, what I have now is just a little CO detector. Besides XGK-EX, I also lay my eyes on a small kerosene stove on the online marketplace, too bad that Lamb Paraffin Stove is very rare. Best Regards, IM ==
