Hi @multi-cho “ Without J. E. Brissman, who took care of the financial, and foreman N. V. Lindh in the factory, Nyberg would never have succeeded so well. He was very moody, but his two employees each had their position with such respect that Nyberg generally let them be held. On the afternoon of June 9, 1906, Nyberg called four of his caretakers for discussion in the garden. He informed them that Max Sievert pointed out the error in running such a large business as a personal business. He had therefore decided that he and the engineers together would form joint-stock companies. "Yes, but the master, we have no money to pay shares with," the four objected. "You get shares from me," Nyberg reported, and thus the company was founded. Two of the workshops received ten shares of SEK 500 and the other two eight shares.” Extract from: AB Max Sievert - 75th Jubilee. 1882 - 1957 Best Regards, Kerophile.
@kerophile So Aktiebol. Max Sievert marking is post June 1906? And consequently the bottom stamping with only Max Sievert Stockholm Patent are pre June 1906? Thanks, Nicola
@kerophile thank you. The Three Brothers story was too long, so I stopped reading it.^_^; Thank you for teaching. This is an important point.
@multi-cho please note, however, that the company formed by Nyberg in 1906 was 'C. R. Nybergs Lödlampsfabrik AB', not AB Max Sievert. This was Nyberg's manufacturing arm. AB Max Sievert was a completely separate marketing company which at that date handled Nyberg's blow lamps, but not his stoves. Max Sievert didn't take on Nyberg's stove marketing until 1908, and the Nyberg and Sievert companies remained separate entities until 1922 when Sievert bought out Nyberg's shares in the manufacturing company. The whole exceedingly complex relationship between the Nyberg and Sievert companies can be found outlined in two posts here and here.
@igh371 Thanks for clarifying, in fact I remembered you talking in your Svea posts about 1908 as the date of the company evolution. Thanks, Nicola
I'm struggling to keep up with the pace of this thread! But all is fair game, the testing of refutability is the best vehicle for advancing knowledge and understanding. I'll conflate comment on the 'different' 111 filler cap with the applicability of forensic reconstruction methods in relation to what was or was not being offered in catalogues or in practice in the period 1915-24. To start with the filler cap, the unusual filler cap on some Svea 111 and 115 stoves in or just after 1915 doesn't surprise me. The devastating impact of WW1 on Primus stove production was well illustrated in this production figures graph. There is no reason to suppose that the impact on other Swedish stove manufacturers, including Svea, was any less catastrophic. Primus resorted to several real anomalies in availability production during those years, even resorting to steel pump tubes at one point in some models. Note too that production did not fully recover after the war until 1923. Meanwhile stop gap production of stoves in Britain under the Aurora and Soutter names was so impacted by vagaries in component availability in 1917 & 1918 that there are barely 2 stoves alike in the gallery examples. The point being that narrowly focused detailed analysis of catalogues and other evidence from those war years needs to be taken with great caution before moving to longer term developmental conclusions, especially when the quantity of available evidence for Svea in particular is so sparse from that period. Amongst other things it is worth reiterating that we still do not know which variations in tank base and side inscriptions can be ordered sequentially, or whether some could have been contemporary with others but based on which particular markets individual production runs were aimed at. At this present moment, however, we can say that the 1924 catalogue has at least shown that a lot more of the pre-war Svea range survived into the early 1920s than had previously been suspected, so many Svea stoves and components which have previously been labelled as late-WW1-era may well in fact be early 1920s production.
@igh371 truly thanks for your extremely useful comment, at least for me. The war, sure, and the Primus sales chart that I have checked many times when exploring Primus products. Every concept you have expressed was already in my mind but, thanks to them, now they are fixed in my head also for Svea and the empty space between 1915 and 1924 catalogs is now less empty than before. Your comment, as you also said, brought up to 1924 many stoves that I always thought to be pre WWI at a first look and by a superficial knowledge of the Svea brand. So from now on when I will see a “bubble font” I will think to a wider timeframe than before and this is really useful. This also explains me why the post 1915 812/813 burners are so hard to find. Also understanding that some things just cannot be known in any way is important. Thanks, Nicola
@OMC For what is worth, Ian confirmed that all the Willander examples, that should be some of the earliest Svea stoves, don’t have any bottom stamping. So we can, always without any certainty, place the 0 and 11 without bottom stamping right after the Willander models… just because they share this lack of stamping. The lack of the bottom stamping on those 0 and 11 could be motivated in a different way? Maybe for their destination? (Domestic, export, etc). Sure it can. So, again, for what is worth, we have another little piece of information for our future talking. Nicola
i might have mentioned i'm not yet thru 1915. Collaborative effort is a huge plus. Nicola may have mentioned it helps to put things to writing, if so, i agree, this is discussion any/all comments welcome (toss it out here, post a pic, jot it down). Factoring, inserting the company name/history is good example of that, among others. Thanks to all. The tank marking 1 pint vs 2 pint differ from the beginning is impression I have, credit Nicola. i suggest, split the observations. I am not neglecting/disregarding 1 pinters but I, myself, lean to the 2 pinters as an initial focus. Any comments welcome and 1 pinters and other SVEA examples DO still factor-in, just, to get sequence established, i think, it will be helpful to limit it to 2 pinter tanks, initially. Multi-cho may have suggested similar above. ==================== I stand by that suggestion i just made, which makes this next observation just turrible (as C. Barkley would say), here goes, Willander Svea No.1 1904-7 2 pinter fixed leg N*W logo then there is Willander Svea No.10 1 pinter fixed leg N&W logo The logos, the burner image, is different. Not that we'll ever know for sure but would we attribute the logo difference to the tank size (the lettering does differ from the beginning) but the logo difference.. maybe, maybe not. What's up with that ------------------------ That does relate to another *question i do not expect answered, I , myself, will set aside this example, it shows few details, Willander fixed leg ... what pinter? Myself, I do not know the model/tank size (*anybody?) fwiw here is that N&W logo ----------------------------------- as for different tank markings, apparently there's an early and later star-burst style 'Sievert'. something to look forward to. ------------ i managed just that tidbit and i'm late for service call, catch up later.
@OMC I will follow your suggestion about keep focusing on 2 pints models, but 0 and 1 were the first two models produced in 1904 so it is important to keep an eye also on smaller tanks from time to time. Thanks to my observation about font differences I can now be confident to say that this Willander is a 2 pint one. The Willander logo difference you have recognized is really interesting and fits into the discussion. Nicola PS I will analyze starburst logos asap.
@igh371 @OMC @multi-cho asked me if I have ever seen this filler: I told him that maybe it belonged to a blowlamp or similar, also because is marked Max Sievert and not Svea. When I wrote this I thought about the smaller filler caps on economy models 111 and 115, as well marked Max Sievert: Now the question: is possible that during wartime scarcity some blowlamp components were used on some stove models? Especially on the economy ones? I don’t have any knowledge about Max Sievert blowlamps, but I will search in this direction for similar filler caps. Nicola
@OMC Regarding starburst logo I confirm that there are some little differences between logos on bubble font period tanks and logos on new font tanks: Bubble font tank logo detail: New font tank detail: Early “bubble font” small tank logo detail: The logo on “bubble font” early small tanks differs a little if compared to the logos on “bubble font” 2 pints tanks. So in conclusion is plausible that also Willander logos match this pattern. Nicola
Willander small tank logo has more details and a three dimensional prospective: The 2 pints tank logo is more flat, without any prospective view: But it’s obvious that for small and big tanks different dies for stamping where used, but it’s interesting to see such evident differences in design quality between the two logos. Nicola
@Nicola Francesco Elia Interesting too that both of these Willander Svea logos appear to show the Nyberg tube roarer as presumably the original fitment, most clear on the more 3D image.
@igh371 yes interesting, and they are also quite accurate! As @multi-cho noticed here Svea-8 the 800 burner for Svea 1 has an evident rounded lip on flame spreader that is well represented on the 2 pints Willander image also if flat 2D. The smaller 801 instead has a cut away border. In fact the 3D look illustration on small tank Willander shows a shadow and not a rounded lip and that shadow could be represented thanks to the 3D representation. Thanks to @kerophile for this nice 800 burner image: Thanks to @multi-cho for the detailed image of 801 burner: Nicola
@Nicola Francesco Elia ,@OMC ,@igh371 Off topic on forum, but "804/805" burner This is an example of spreading that wonderful design abroad. In 1920, a person named "Rin" and a person named "nai" came together to form a company, and among the first ones they made was the Rinnai stove. This is probably a rare item that is not even in the gallery. The 804/805 burner head that fascinated the engineer "nai" was made by his hands in a distant land. The stove is in Korea. (my member) Rinnai stove(patent)-Japan
@multi-cho now that is fascinating! Basically an 804/805 burner but with an updated fully separate outer flame spreader as opposed to the older Svea type that had a fixed perforated ring with only the top cap removable. I wonder where the actual tooling and manufacturing of the Rinnai burner was done? The similarity of this burner and the Svea burner is far too close to be purely coincidental.
@igh371 ,@Nicola Francesco Elia If I interpret it as it is written, there is an article called Fukuoka in Kyushu region, and the word Rinnai gas generator is written in large in the middle. Today's gas appliance giant Rinnai and svea's Burnerhead relationship..... Is it fun?
thanks all for all of the above and that just above is a very interesting tidbit. ------------------ almost want to apologize but I too shift focus (briefly). this may or may not relate to different N&W logos. Because the details that Victoria examples show us are soo wide ranging (all during a relatively short time on the market), we do not know (may never know) the Victoria earliest to latest model development sequence, some of it yes. The Nyberg tubular roarer burner definitely developed with several iterations (what order, i dunno). The evolved burner and entire pump/valve asm. carried over (in some form) to the earliest "SVEA" stove. Willander's influence possibly but the earliest "SVEA" stove is otherwise very different than the latest Victoria. Seeing that the nyet "SVEA" No.1 stove is quite different. I expect this plausibly/probably meant an entirely new assembly line for entirely new stove (allowed for no disruption to Victoria assembly?). Might both models been offered for a brief time, it's possible, no? all, Many early Svea details have been discussed/learned, revelations continue, is there already an update to a prev. comment? This: "approx. year range for Victoria, tentative answer: began not earlier than c1895 ended ...before 1907 (maybe early 19 aughts, c1900 or late 1890s?)" ---------------------------- Among comments re rare early SVEA hard dates, none are more concise than an Ian comment: In fewer than a couple dozen words we have > hard date: Late 1904 nyet (N&W) Svea No. 1 first offered, a 2 pinter, tubular roarer (brnr: Victoria origin) > hard date: during 1905 (mid/late 1905?) *"0" size (N&W) Svea ___ (0 / 10) offered, 1 pinter, sm. tubular roarer. *the 1st Nyberg 1 pinter tubular roarer > hard "by" date: **by 1908 "Willander's ambitions for Svea had been thwarted" by 1908 the 1st Nyberg tubular silent burner (4 & 5 sizes) **it's been said early 1908 Wallander was out, Max took-over the sales aspect for Nyberg's "SVEA" stoves. On 1908 catalog is "342.XI.08" (XI... late 1908 possibly? by Christmas?). There may (yet) be documentation (for end of N&W trademark stamp) earlier or earlier in 1908 but we do see... In 1908, the 1908 catalog offers the "SVEA" stove No.s 0, 1, 4, 5, 10, 11, 8, 9, 2. All are stamped with early star-burst style 'Sievert' trademark.
