PHOEBUS - PHÖBUS Gerson, Boehm & Rosenthal

Glass logo is the ink stamped style found also on 1934 brochure, more detailed.

Tank logo - made in Germany 1938-45 production.

Did you mean anything different?

Nicola

 

In my opinion the lipstick burner is mainly intended for easier burner renovation, so the fact that “seems collapsible” is not something to look at in this case, that’s why there are fixed legs.

Barthel introduced lipstick burners for this reason too:



Nicola

 

for me:
discussed example is "simply, cheap in production (boring like optimus original) - except that lipstic mounting...
if it is "real phobus" - must be made in 1895-1905
but simplicity gives impressions 1920-1930 - like other fakes design

 

@gieorgijewski without going too far: fixed legs, fully removable burner:



Nicola

 

I don’t see GB&R as innovators in the stoves field, like many other producers.

1895-1905 period we have Nyberg on Victoria and Barthel on Juwel burners… Primus lipstick patent 1902 … that Phobus Patent lipstick doesn’t fit for me in this period… as you say the tank too has a more modern style-> final design.

Nicola

 

re @gieorgijewski IMO "We" can say "Optimus/Phobus 100" was from 1905 +/- 1
upper gives - level of technology reached for 1905

IF, we view the discus Optimus 100, Optimus GB&R, Vienna as a copy of discus Optimus 100?
That would mean discus Optimus 100 (Sweden) came before the Vienna copy... correct?
[ was it possibly other way round, 1st Optimus discus born/bought from a Vienna arrangement?]
Whatever the best effort yields here, this might -cautiously- contribute to tentative timelines for early Optimus models:
> earliest "OPTIMUS" stoves ?
> earliest Optimus discus ? (it was the 100)

IIRC Optimus took over functioning Record production line 1899/1900. It is unconfirmed, iirc, the approx year for
*first "OPTIMUS" stove, No.1 or ? (it could have been 1899/1900 BUT, iirc, that is in-question)
*my thought, the form of Optimus earliest stove(s) was exact or closely resembles Record domestic 2 pinter.
Traveler versions were apparently soon after or very soon after).
There were TWO earliest travelling forms:
Travelling Optimus No.1 bun foot AND
most-rare Pre-1911 2 pint Optimus 100
All those earliest 2 pinters preceded Optimus earliest discus tank.

btw my hobby/web time is limited. thanks
tag @igh371

 

@OMC after finding the 1902 lipstick burner patent by primus, I supposed that Optimus 100 in discus style was post 1906 (Optimus 100 collapsible 2 pints by @igh371).

Nicola

 

Hi Nicola, You posed this question much earlier in the thread but I wasn't in a position to rely then for a reason you will see. First the Optimus Vienna No.1 does have a 19mm diameter riser as well as sporting the 'GB&R' designation on the pump tube cap. I could have posted that much earlier than this but, given the small sample number of 'GB&R' marked stoves in the gallery I wanted to await arrival of another No.1 example to see how that would fit the pattern that you seemed to be discerning. Well that additional example has now finally arrived and yes those original features which are still present match those that you have described, including the 19mm diameter 'fat' riser. Many of the ancillaries have been changed over the years but it has survived a lot, including not least its most recent journey, to me, from Ukraine!


(See gallery entry here).

 

@igh371

Hi Ian thanks for confirming the earlier riser size.

What now is intriguing is the filler cap on your GB&R no 1. Is that a Phoebus Mickey Mouse cap or another replacement? I would expect this filler on MJR examples only.

EDIT

Ok I have just seen on the gallery entry that the filler cap is an unbranded one. This makes much sense.

Thanks,

Nicola

 

On the subject of Phoebus timelines:

I have a Phoebus No. 1 that I’m working on. Found in Australia, with a silent burner.

The tank has this Phoebus lighthouse logo:




I conclude from this thread that logo was used between 1919 and 1945, but the stove is stamped “Made in Austria”, therefore before 1938/9.

The filler cap is not “Mickey Mouse”, the feet are “lions feet”, and the fuel riser is normal, not a narrow diameter.

But…

On the bottom of the tank it is stamped “T 271”. What does this mean?




There are also scratch marks on the bottom of the tank that appear to have been deliberately put there:






Any knowledgeable comments much appreciated.


Cheers

Tony

 

IMO J not "T"
IMO 1927-01

 

@Tony Press @gieorgijewski yes, middle to late 1920s is probably correct, as Tony said the earliest examples post GB&R had Mickey Mouse filler cap style and burner riser still of 19mm diameter.

Regarding the bottom code, I have some doubts, but some investigations can be made.

For now I can’t recognize a pattern because for example I have an early 19mm riser Phoebus 1 with C46 as bottom code… and one similar to Tony’s one with J128. So the format/pattern:

LETTER M YY / YY M code suggested by @gieorgijewski can’t be applied to every stove.

J128 would be January 1928 or August 1912 if read with the Gieorgi suggested order.

Nicola

 

break break
==========
only for missed or not delivered alerts from 28-05
gieorgijewski said: ↑

for me:
discussed example is "simply, cheap in production (boring like optimus original) - except that lipstic mounting...
if it is "real phobus" - must be made in 1895-1905
but simplicity gives impressions 1920-1930 - like other fakes design
I don’t see GB&R as innovators in the stoves field, like many other producers.
i'am talking about Optimus vienna no 1

second

was in original post
if optimus phoebus 100 vienna is real must be "around 1903"
value if true - if is real see upper
value if false - if is not real upper datation is inproper

 

@gieorgijewski in our private messaging we have seen that GB&R Optimus Vienna 100 is more a Primus 100 than an Optimus 100 and as well the GB&R Optimus Vienna 1 is more like a Primus than an Optimus.

Looking at logo details of Opti-logo-mus we are probably around 1903 and so also too soon for Optimus that we know.

As I told you, when you find your example of Phöbus 100 we can start again from that stove… Phöbus 100 -> renamed Opti-logo-mus Vienna 100…

 

ok
but again
where are thats earliest P100 with PATENT ? opposite to other diskus tank stoves with patent...

 

Do you mean real stove of 1903 catalog?



We have not found yet a Primus 100 with Patent, but we have found 215 with same early stamping and later stamping (as early few P100 in the gallery).

Clearly it’s a 120 years old stove we are looking for, not easy to find as 215 with patent.

 

We have found only 1 215 with patent (and my 12a and Primus 16), two later ones (plus mine) and an even later one (@igh371 one).



So clearly 1903 primus discus are hard to find.

 

Yes pattern logo with PATENT
counted as time signum
all types of that logo version existed in one time
by the catalogue and ads P100 is earliest stove with that tank shape
if is earliest - > where are they - i have 1 example
--------------------
easier to find youger - shorted produced

 

Do you have a Primus 100 with Patent stamping?

Theory for others that are reading:

GB&R Vienna Opti-logo-Mus are exactly like Primus of 1903 catalog (so too soon for Optimus Sweden and for Optimus 100 model).

So GB&R Vienna Opti-logo-Mus are (in my opinion) stoves made under Primus license.

Opti-logo-mus name is a causality like Trassman Svea, nothing to share with Optimus we know. So a name was chosen to produce stoves under Primus license.

GB&R Vienna Opti-logo-Mus 100 at a certain point is corrected to Phöbus (Phöbus name creation).

Name correction happened when Optimus Sweden trade mark was registered and Optimus company born?

So basically every detail is in favor of Primus and not Optimus.

Another answer we need to find: when Phöbus name was first used? 1904? We need to find some proofs about Phöbus name first use date.

Nicola

 

@gieorgijewski ok so this is your Primus 100 Patent (from hunting):



So, this stamping is really representative of Primus and we have never seen it on Optimus. And we have all the other details screaming Primus too…

Considering how rare it is, how many chances, frankly speaking, there are that the GB&R Vienna Opti-logo-mus 100 is an Optimus and not a Primus? For me close to zero or very very few…

Nicola