I don't know Bob, I'd hate to step in somebodies campfire. But if you really think i should well i guess i could. Okay here goes. In my opinon, .................., naaaaaaa you don't really want to hear all this. lance
Very true but when the conditions are like that the gassies have stopped working altogether and the Coleman easi lights need priming as well.
i've wondered about this - my feeling is that MSR's advertising dollars are quite effective, and propane canister-supported camping devices may be more 'tort-adverse' than naptha-fueled stoves and lanterns setup and priming the Dragonfly is more complicated than for a 123, IMHO and there's no way i'd use my Dragonfly on a daily basis - it simply wouldn't hold up to regular use... a shame that these classic stoves are now turning into collectors items
I don't know about that, with all the clones of Classics it's not really only collectors who are buying them. Agreed some are better made than others but really, who is to say a classic style made in a little shop in southern India, is any better or worse (as far as intended use is concerned) than a Primus or Hipalito or any of the others out there. lance
Earlier this year I sold all my modern stoves. I sold my MSR Whisperlite Internationale, which although ran well on "petrol" was not reliable using paraffin - I had endless (well 9 to be exact)K jets and about 15 years ago gave up using paraffin on it entirely. It was O.K with petrol as I said.....but damn fiddly to strip with cold fingers. The Dragonfly...well I never did like the damn thing and the pot supports...hmm. The best of the bunch was the Optimus Nova, particularly as you only needed one jet but I still did not like those tiny - really tiny filters which are easily lost in the world of wild camping. So, as I said, I got shot of the lot. This year when backpacking and wild camping I used my 1950's SVEA 123 which is simple to use and few parts to go wrong. Touch wood a SVEA 123 or R has never failed me yet. My first "classic" stove I bought when I was a young man was an Optimus 00, which I must get out of the shed and give it some use as it too was a very reliable stove. My Optimus 96, circa 1960, given to me when my pal quit climbing in 1972 has been a truly excellent stove and earlier this year I obtained a special rising tube from CCS member Bryan Miller. Brian also made me some special lightweight aluminium legs for the stove too. This special rising tube allows me to use a 2 pint roarer or two pint silent burner for quicker boiling & cooking and I have used it a lot this year. I intend using the 96 even more often and look forward to using a BD midi-damper when they are made. Yes, I do like classic brass stoves as they have proved so reliable. When backpacking I do carry a 110 cart and a tiny lightweight (85 gram) burner as a backup just in case. As Murphy and his brother Sod is always around I do like a backup particularly when on along trip as a traditional "campfire" for a brew is not an option in the mountains.
connecting a fuel line to a pump is too fiddly/to much hard work don't like the potstands on a dragonfly there too big not for more than one person i only use classics, reliable like the 123's get yourself a trangia then innit bunch of dinosaurs the lot of you you can always send me your umbilical stoves i'll make good use of them, a nice early solid fuel line xgk if you have one of those PLEASE
Yeah I got one of them Dragooon fly gizmo's. My thoughts as Lance said without pissin on anyones camp fire is. Yep they are noisey. The pot supports will hold a BLOODY great pot. Simmer nicely on kero. Bit slower to boil using kero than some. Nice cooking flame pattern for the frypan. Good "cooking" stove Great if you are deaf...or want to drown out the rain thundering down of a tin roof shelter!!! My vavle will leak sometimes if I don't turn off the bottle first. IMHO better cooking stove than a Nova.(better flame spread) More wind proof down low than a nova. Toss up between having to bleed of the Nova with its sticky vavle if shut orf and the dicky plastic pump. Bad bits. You wont find a pan it will fit in unless you go t the size you need for about 4 hundry teenages. Leave the stinker in its bag. Noise. I was worried about the hose and connections but..it has given no troubles. Ohh did I say the pumps are shit!!! If you what something to funtion then stick with the least amount of parts to go wrong.This has its share but no worse than the other muck thats about. Take a swag of spares so you will not need any!!! I can't beat a good 'ol brassy stovette!!! No tins. setup etc etc. Barra I don't backpack
If you want utter reliability then go for a Swedish army trangia a tad heavy but as tough as a bucket of spanners but there is nowt to go wrong and if you run out of alcohol just light a fire in the windshield. OK pretty they are not but I always have one in the back of my van just in case. I have one of these Chinese made Booster+1 bottle stove and it is impressive a nice size burner head and pot supports and seriously efficient I know that Rick has some issues with the fuel lines but I haven't had a problem with them though I bought a couple of spares....just in case and they have the advantage of being able to screw a gas canister on them should you wish to. Spare pumps are not that dear either so they may be worthy of consideration if you are in the market for a modern workhorse stove. A question I do have is are there any places I can source 8R clones other than the russian ones as getting bits for those is damn near impossible. Cheers Alan
I'm going out on a limb here. Before I do, let me say that my Sveas, Optimuses, and Colemans have gotten much more use than either of my MSR stoves. Which is to say that I love my classic stoves and use them a lot. I do have one canister stove -- Snow Peak Giga -- and it is great for day hikes and short trips in clement weather. OK, that's the disclaimer part. Here's the limb: MSR has sold thousands upon thousands of their products. They have been used in every type of situation imaginable, by newbies clear on up to the kind of guys who write the articles and books. If the problems that some of you guys have noted were endemic, this kind of market penetration simply never would have happened. I give you the Ford Pinto. It's fatal flaw was quickly discovered and the darn thing vanished from the market. As Colin Fletcher once remarked, "I believe this state of affairs is known as capitalism." Am I saying that any of you are liars or even exaggerators? Not in my experience. A better bunch of straight-shooting pards I could not want to meet -- at least when we are talking about something important like stove performance. What I am suggesting is: First, we are a pretty daggone demanding bunch of stovies. We know a lot, and we have our likes and dislikes. For any given scenario, most of us could generally think of a stove that would suit better than an MSR. That's why my classic stoves get more use than my Whisperlite or Simmerlite. Second, no company's QA can ever reach 100%. There are going to be problems with some individual stoves, no matter how well made. But when you consider the many thousands of MSR stoves out there, and the fact that reports of these problems are not rolling in by the truck-load, then statistical analysis suggests that they are well-made and tough enough. I wonder how many Toyota Camry's have been sold? With their reputation for reliability and smooth operation, it must really suck to be the one who buys the lemon. But you know every Camry made cannot be 100% perfect. Can't happen. Not asking anyone to change opinions or preferences. Just suggesting that we apply some statistical kung fu to any broad, sweeping statements we make.
The Booster makes a cracking gas stove due to the pre heat tube over the burner, works well in the cold; in fact my daughter started camping last summer with her partner and its one of the stoves I set them up with. Look around the web and you will see Markhill stoves which to my eyes look identical to the Booster only cost about four time more? Swedish army setups? I loved the idea of them, got a couple a few years ago and raved about them,,,,,, until I relied on one as my only stove for a weekend Just too slow but are OK as you said over an open fire. In fact I look upon them more as an open fire kit with an alcohol backup burner these days. I've kept one aluminium and one stainless steel set for 'old times sake'. I still love real Trangia's (and some of their clones) and really must get a Caldera cone to try out.
Sorry Bill, they have all been sold! Had a Trangia for decades – nice but bulky and fine in summer – but a hot brew fast is what I want in winter! It is irrelevant how many wigits have been sold – do not underestimate the power of advertising. As to guys who write articles and books…again, irrelevant. If they are “staffers” it is often “who pays the piper”, if not, then their opinion is no more valid than yours or mine. As to problems “rolling in” …Hmmmm How many pumps have MSR had now? If I buy another modern stove, and I might, it may be another Nova it maybe a Omnifuel…one thing for sure it will certainly have a metal pump. And, another thing, particularly the MSR Whisperlite Internationale….still touted as a “multi-fuel stove”….is it hell. It does not burn paraffin at all well…and it is paraffin you need when travelling outwith the West….try and find “white gas” for want of a better word East of Suez. We will all have our favourites but reliability, reliability, reliability if you are out for more than a stroll. So, as some have suggested – A Trangia is very very reliable but slow. Hexamine stoves, nothing to go wrong – but awfully slow. The thing is use what you are happy with but don’t be seduced by advertising.
Hmm. I have both stoves. Seems about the same. A shot of meths, let the meths burn down, open the valve, light the now vaporizing liquid fuel. What's been your experience? I've heard that before -- that a D'fly won't stand up to regular use. I'm using my D'fly on a weekly basis right now. It'll be interesting to see what it's reliability is. I've not used my D'fly on this regular a basis before.
keep us updated! i'm using my 123 w/a BD minicap nearly every day for a cup of java or miso prior to my bike ride - the only issue i have to watch is to not to 'over prime,' as i'll waste fuel if the 123 is over-pressured from a meths prime (i.e., too much pressure, too much flame, etc.)... definitely don't want to run the 123 dry!
Evening, Snow Goose, and All, My experience with the MSR Whisperlite International, is exactly the same as yours. We tried to use our's on our 850 mile PCT trip, burning kero, and also priming with kero, as the stove was advertised as being great with that combo, and was supposedly setup for it! Despite meticulous care on my part, and regular cleaning, the nasty bag of sh_te quit on us at high elevation, and as darkness decended upon us, and the temperatures fell, had we not had the loaner of another PCT Hiker's Coleman Multifuel stove, we'd have been in some serious trouble!! As others here at CCS may remember, we contacted MSR about our problems, and they finally admitted to us that the International was NEVER MEANT TO BE A MULTIFUEL STOVE, and that it was really designed to burn Coleman fuel, and NOTHING ELSE!!! We BOUGHT the damned thing, because of all the "glowing reports" about how reliable it was, and how it could burn several fuels, and be field maintainable. NONE of that happy horse puckey turned out to be true, unfortunately!! For weekend campers, and those who do not rely on their stoves for more than a few days, maybe it will suffice. But, for us, it was a POS, pure and simple, and even though MSR redesigned the fuel generator tube, soon after our trip (Hummm... must have been getting a few more complaints than just ours....), and even though I have one of the newer designs, I WILL NEVER TRUST THAT STOVE AGAIN, and will only use it when I have a trusted backup stove, just in case the WLI goes South on us, once again. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me! Not going to happen again, Mates!! As to any problems with MSR stoves actually being "legendary", yes, indeed!! Back in the beginning, the original yellow, or white, pumps, were very good, indeed. They could be, and still can be, completely rebuilt to strong working condition. I wrote an article on how to do that, as well as how to completely rebuild an X-GK stove. Unfortunately, as of yet, I've not put either of them into a format that will work well here. Ross is all ready to go, it's just me that isn't... In any case, the original MSR pumps were reliable, and strong. The pumps that came afterward, were never even close to being as reliable as those original pumps. Beginning with the grey and black pumps, they began to fail. Slowly, at first, then faster as they got used more and more, and as they aged. ALL of the MSR pumps that came after those black and grey ones, were worse, yet!! Grey and orange, red and blue, and every other one, up until MSR finally redesigned the tabs that holds the pump rod into the pump body, were just short of worthless. For those that have not had problems, I say they have not used their stoves very much, or they have been very lucky! Hey, I used to be one of those folks, and I truly thought that my old grey and black pumps were going to last forever. I made that comment right here at CCS, years ago, when someone complained that theirs had gone South. Unfortunately, the very next time I used one of those pumps, the tabs broke off of it!!! Shortly after that, another one broke, too. Anyone have a good recipe for crow??!! Not until they came out with their newest pump design, have I trusted any MSR pumps to last. Is their newest one perfect? Not on your life! BUT, it's a far cry better than any other MSR pump, except for the oldest ones!! So far, I've not had any problems, at all, despite quite a bit of use. Yes, if it was up to me, I'd make even more changes to it. But, since nobody from MSR is breaking down my door to get my opinion, I'll have to accept that what they are now selling, is the best that they are willing to offer. Having said all that, I must tell you all that the Optimus and Primus metal-bodied pumps are becoming my most favorite, period! And, as much as I love my Nova stoves, my Omnifuel is beginning to merit more consideration on my part, and the outstanding metal pump that is part of that design, is a large part of my attraction to the Omnifuel!! But, back to the original question. MSR has a growing bad reputation for their stove pumps. The problems that can occur, and HAVE occurred, are widespread, and very well known. So, in answer to the comment about MSR having sold so many stoves: My answer is, yes, and how many thousands of pumps have they had to replace? Many, I'd wager!! When the newest pumps came out, MSR even offered a recall of all older pumps. If that doesn't show that they were fully aware of the widespread nature of their poor pump designs, then nothing will ever convince you. I still trust the MSR x-GK stoves, and would take one on any adventure, with the new pumps, or with a very old pump. I also trust the Dragon Fly, quite a bit, and trust the Fire Fly, completely. I've used the FF for many years, without even a hint of trouble, other than leaking from the fuel line ends, which were later redesigned by MSR... Hey, that's another design flaw that they addressed with a complete redesign. I think my point has been made, however. MSR has made some really great stoves, and some really poor ones. Other than their original pumps, and possibly their newest ones, the rest are pure garbage, and if yours hasn't failed yet, don't worry, IT WILL, one of these days!! I guarantee it, Friends!! Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
Probably should be getting back to the original question which from memory was "is it worth buying a second hand dragonfly?" I think the answer comes out as yes although there are more robust stoves around. I have had a 123r since new 30 years ago and in that time the only maintenance its had is one cap washer. If I was to open it up I would most likely find charred wicks as they have never been touched and it has run dry many times but it goes well. It doesnt keep up with the dragonfly and doesnt simmer as well. It will probably still be going well long after the dragonfly is buried. Ive seen the new fancy gas rigs that are supposed to work at low temps but what happens at about -10 when theres not enough vapour pressure to push the first gas down the line. I do use gas in the summer if its a trip where the stove might get a dunking as its lots easier to shake a gassie dry than rebuild any petrol stove. One thing that makes the dragonfly easy to use is that when you prime it will make a noise when its fully primed. No guess work Ive heard all the stories with MSR pumps and at the local cost its worth changing the stove when the pump dies. Is it possible to marry an optimus/primus pump to a MSR stove. In the club I tramp with the 2 most common stoves are the whisper-lite and the Coleman feather-light.
Brrenanold...About the Msr stove thing. Have you ever picked up a camping mag etc MSR Big stores only sell MSR Camping change stores sell MSR / coleman Ask 100 people here in oz and 90 % will know what a "primus" (clasic is) Who said advertising don't work. Most will go a small gas stove. The full on folk MSR or a coleman. A few folk know about trangias though!! GO figure!!!! THe rest is Most think there is nothing but a small gassie has any merit for hiking/cooking. If thats all you know thats all yer git Barra
Okay, one more comment, as I'm not going to beat this horse to death. Anecdotal tales are useless. The best product ever made will fail in some way at some time. The guy it happens to will say "what a POS" and get something else, and wonder why everyone else is so happy with them. Until someone can show me the stats on time-to-failure and that kind of thing, it's all just opinion, which is fine, until it is stated as fact. I should have kept it that simple in the first place. [This is an edit. I put in a longer post at first. Thought about it. Decided, "nuts to that."]
Hey, Brerarnold, Good points, one and all. But, how about the FACT that MSR told me, personally, that the Whisperlite International was NEVER intended to be a multifuel stove, and that other fuels should be used only in a true emergency, and even then, with expectation of failure??? Yet, they continue to market that stove as a multifuel, even though, by their own admission, is not one, and was never designed to be one!! This is not anecdotal, as far as I''m concerned. I talked to their Chief Stove Tech, whose name I will not post, but who I knew for a few years, and he is the one who admitted this stuff to me. Later, after our horrible MSR failures on the PCT (and please remember, I was not a novice to stoves, and knew full well how to keep them up and running, if the stove was designed properly), another MSR Tech, out of pure desperation, told me the same thing on the phone!! That's TWO MSR Techs, both of whom told me the exact same story! Proof enough, as far as I'm concerned........ But, hey, each to his/her own, sez I, and more power to anyone who decides to trust an MSR WLI with their lives, on a long trip, far, far away.... Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc P.S. The pump failures are not "anecdotal" either, actually. Read any of the outdoors mags from that period, and you will see the facts of the massive MSR pump recall efforts. FACTS, not fiction.
good thread i have used my dragonfly quite a bit and it's so good on panel wipe i have never tried it on paraffin but after reading Bruces post about how well it runs on paraffin i'll have to try it out for myself I love the roar though btw didn't like/get on with the omnifuel note to self must get a firefly
