Advice Needed: Multifuel Family Emergency Stove

I don't think you're going to have to worry about it, Lance, but it makes an interesting story.

If I were a betting man, my bet would be that I'll be dead before the apocolypse, and so will several generations of my descendants, much has been the case with countless generations of my forbears.

As for getting ready for natural disasters, it makes sense. Survival after the "SHTF" times would, in the long run, be random.

 

I have a water filter that will clean the water (a few hundred gallons) down to removing viruses, a couple of weeks of food and a small store of ammunition. If the disaster lasts longer than I am prepared for, well, there is always joining the zombies.....

We are all just two-legged dinosaurs waiting for the next asteroid.

 

"Lack of preperation on your part, does not constitute an emergancy on my part.

Ed, i'm not worried about it at all. I have prepared and have all i need and a bit to spare. Not much but some. And i know a friend or two who will help out. Do not forget i'm in the mid-west (aka flyover country) where neighbours help each other in times of need. It's you folks on the left coasts and any place where the "i want it and you're not being fair for not shareing" crowd live that i'm directing my comments to. The, me first crowd are going to be the first to go, after that it's the ones who are only half prepared. They will have the food, or the ammo, or the willingness to go out looking but they won't have enough of anything to last a two week shortage. This second group will be a part of the mob.

You know it's true, just look at the gimmie groups who scream about how the rest of us arn't doing our share when they have done nothing to prepare beyond the next half-hour. Even now they scream at those of us who have what we need and a bit to share (money/food/housing, etc.) arn't doing our fair share, and should be paying more in taxes so they can live off the sweat of our brow. My answer is, F### 'em. If they want more then they can work for it. They scream the illegals have all the manual labor jobs, so they can't find work. Yet when the jobs are open they then yell, "It's too tough, my back hurts, you don't pay enough, and on and on adnausa." Sure the work is tough. sure your back hurts, sure they don't pay enough, but the illegals are making a living and even though their back hurts, the pay is low, the work tough, still they are out there every day earning a living. My advice to them: Shut your mouth, go to work, earn a living, get the freek off the welfare roles, and by doing so push the illegals out of the country. They won't stay if there is no work/money for them.

Does it sound like i have no heart, no compassion, no feelings. Truth is for that crowd i don't. I'm sick and tired of their gimmie, gimmie, gimmie, and none of the, "here take this cuz you need it", from them.

My next comments are not directed at anyone in particular. If you think they are aimed at you then perhaps you need to examine your life.

Winston Churchill is reported to have said: "If you are not a liberal by the time you are 30 you have no heart. If you are still a liberal by the time you are 40 you have no brain."

I guess i've never had a heart cuz i've never been a liberal. I started working when i was in grade school. Was paying my way by the time i was 15. And have paid my way ever since. And it frosts my b@!!$ that my taxes have paid for a bunch of freeloaders to sit on their keesters and eat the food i should have on my table, when they have done nothing to earn one cent of it. And if you think they deserve it, then in my view, perhaps you belong in the other group.

lance

 

Well, my stove acquisition(s) have begun. I am now the proud owner of an (in-transit) 413H, new in the box. It won't be my only stove. Since there wasn't one stove to rule them all, I'm going with the accumulated wisdom here and getting a few.

I quite liked the point someone made about choosing the easiest to use stove/fuel first, then only working up to the more challenging ones as needed. That's why a propane adapter will be my next purpose. Most of the cooking is generally done by my wife, and the easier it is to use the happier we will be.

My reason for asking the question was, as others have pointed out, it doesn't take long for civilization to break down. If that happens, I want my family to hunker down. No trips for water, food, or fuel mean no unneccessary exposure to those who want me to share.

Sufficient ammo means I get to keep my stuff until all of the weaker targets have been stripped, and that will take time. Unless we are talking about a civilization-destroying event, some sort of order should be restored within 3 months.

If that's not the case then we all have much bigger problems than how to heat our water.

As to water, I'll second the recommendation someone made about using a gravity fed filter. That plus a few barrels of water and maybe some solid chlorine granules (as used in pool maintenance), and the biggest problem is solved.

I'm sure I will have more questions to follow, just wanted to say thanks to all for helping me get started.

 

Toniok; please don't think i'm all about gloom and doom and the end of the world. That is not the case at all. When i see the things happening to the financial world as has happened. And the status (the real numbers) of employment in this country i know tough times are a-coming. And they will get tougher.

When someone says prepare for the worst hope for the best and live while you can, it sends a message to me. I'm not a total survivalist, i'm just a guy who knows that to be prepared is better than not. And i, like you, know the easy targets will fall first. I don't intend to go down easy. Semper Paratus is my guide. (I'll bet if one tried real hard they could make a song out of that). And i think in a small way it is the guide of all who share in our enjoyment of stoves and camping and the outdoors. We, who have endured the tough times, somewhat instinctivly know that to be prepared is what we have to do to survive. Those who are not, or who don't think beyound their next meal, will be cold, hungry, and at the mercy of those who exploit the masses through intimidation. We, the prepared, will be free to choose our destiny.

lance

 

Sam, our little peashooters are what has kept our country safe from invasion before and they are what keeps us from invasion now.

Acts of terriorism aside, no country would try to invade the US so long as it's citizens are armed.

Admiral Yamamoto knew he could not invade our country and win because he had seen first hand our little peashooters. He knew that our citizens were armed with everything from old Trapdoor Springfield rifles to modern (at that time) hunting rifles. He knew most homes which had guns had more than one. And he knew the owners of those firearms knew how to use them effectivly.

That has been our strength as a country from our founding to this very day. Our citizen soldiers, ready and able to stand up and fight for our freedoms. I'm not talking about the reserves, not even the national guard. No sir, i'm talking about the you and me citizens. Those of us who have firearms and know how to use them effectivly.

And when the SHTF, it is us again, the citizen soldiers, who will be defending our homes and perhaps whole neighbourhoods from those who prey on the weak.

lance

 

Toniok,
Nice find on a NIB 413H. That's a nice, powerful stove. The propane adapter is a real nice addition as well. I found on my adapter, that I had to drill the jet a bit larger to get the same power as with Coleman fuel, but that's easy and only takes a minute. If you don't need that much power, it'll still work fine without enlarging the jet orifice. I do recommend the hose adapter to hook up to 20 or 100 lb bottles though. Keep us posted and post pics when the stove comes in.

Mike

 

Toniok, I think you made a good choice. Don't wait for an emergency to enjoy it!

 

Hi all. Hope you are all enjoying the day as I have been.

I realized I don't have any idea of how much fuel the 413 will use. What should I expect in terms of how long a 20lb tank of propane, or a 1 gallon of Coleman fuel, will last if it's the only source of cooking used to feed a family of four?

 

Depending on what you cook the one pounder will last about two days maybe three. The 20 pounder will, again depending on your use, last in multiables of that.

Your best option is to try it and find out. Don't forget you will be using it to heat water for washup too.

lance

 

Hi Tonioc, we do our everyday cooking on a gasring, 'powered' by bottled butane. The content of one bottle is 12.5kilo and lasts about 3 months. The same amount of propane should last longer as it gives more BTU. Apart from cooking, we use it for boiling water for our coffee. This is for 2 people most of the time, but I have to confess my appetite counts for 1 adult & (at least) 2 children .
Hope this gives you an idea re consumption.

Best regards,

Wim

 

I think Coleman says one gallon of liquid Coleman fuel is equal to 4-1/2 or 5-1/2 one-pound bottles. A 20 lb bottle with a conversion kit (or a dedicated propane stove) would last a long time. Wouldn't hurt to buy an axe, though.

 

Well, 12.5kg works out to about 27lbs. I don't know the BTU difference between butane and propane, but I'd guess that 12.5kg of butane would be similar in energy to a 20lb bottle of propane. So by Wim's numbers 20lbs of propane would come close to lasting 3 months for my family.

Working it from another direction, I found a source that said 20lbs of propane contains about 430K BTUs. The 413 is a 17K BTU stove, so it would seem that with both burners at full burn 20lbs of propane would last about 25 hours (430/17). Of course that wouldn't be cooking but vaporizing. If I'd really be using gas at 1/4 of that rate (between lower flames and only using 1 burner) then 20lbs would last 100 hours.

If the stove is used for 20 minutes three times per day that equates to one hour per day, so a tank would last 100 days or about 3 months.

I'm always amazed when two different approaches end up with the same results...

If 1 gallon of Coleman fuel is about equal to 5 lbs of propane, then 4 gallons equals 20lbs of propane. Without boring all with the numbers, a 20lb tank ends up being slightly larger and heavier (maybe 20%) than the equivalent Coleman fuel, but without the pressurization etc. issues.

I can see why propane has become so popular!

 

Trouble with the Midwest, Lance, is that there's no saltwater for hundreds or thousands of miles. Great Salt Lake doesn't count.

Indeed, it is one of the great virtues of the UK that salt water is never too far away, by comparison to the US.

It's a tradeoff; everybody here is wet (and feckless), but it's at least saltwater!

 

To clarify from my last post, being able to get by on 20lbs of propane for three months doesn't mean that will be all in my stockpile; it seems like 3 tanks would be about right, more if I have add other propane appliances (heaters, lamps).

I was just moving away from even bothering to buy any Coleman fuel, unless someone can give me a good reason to own some. So instead of one multi-stove, now I'm looking at one propane-only stove, albeit a 413H.

And an axe, with a Rocket Stove wood-burner or equivalent.

And maybe even a solar cooker, though it would only work 6 months of the year around here.

That's what learning does for a guy, takes him on unplanned paths.

 

I would suggest getting a Coleman 502 or M-1942 or.....and 10 gallons of fuel. You, or someone, may not always be "home" and the need for a portable rig will be just as important as the base stove.

lance

 

Toniok,
You said you wanted multi-fuel but we had to comprimise, base on your needs. I think it would be a mistake to put all your eggs in either basket. As they will both store indefinitely I personally recommend a good supply of both. If the propane adapter/hose got burned or cut or stripped, you'd be up a creek without a spare. For your needs, I think propane is easily your best main fuel. I would second what Lance said on having a secondary stove for portability, backup and extra cooking.

BTW a Coleman suitcase will burn just as much fuel on full blast with either one or two burners going. The amount of fuel going through the gas tip is the same. When you open the auxiliary burner it pulls down the main significantly. Now if you aren't running full blast, this doesn't apply. I don't recommend running at max output as it is very inefficient.

Get that stove fired up and use it so you will get use to it. You will likely notice that the output is lower on the propane adapter. Most of these are made for "all 2 and 3 burner stoves" and the output is regulated so as not to burn up a small 2 burner. You can have the jet enlarged slightly to compensate for this. You can still regulate it. I just like to have the power if I need it. If you stir fry, for instance, you use a lot of power for a shorter time and retain more nutrients in the food.

Mike

 

Mike/Lance, you raise an interesting point.

My wife is neither gun-savvy nor tactically-minded, so I'm the only one who can defend the fort. And in a disaster situation, I'm assuming that gasoline won't be readily available, so travel wouldn't be an option anyway. My thinking was to hunker down in a defensible situation with lots of supplies and wait for order to be restored.

As to a burst hose or other failure, I had planned to have backups of all parts (propane tanks, propane adapters, hoses, etc.) once I had proofed out my initial setup. And the Coleman stove is portable too, so if I did have to take us on the road it wouldn't be a major problem.

Plus I'd have a stove to burn wood (Rocket Stove or similar), and maybe a solar oven. Lots of redundancy, in different cookers as well as fuel, and all portable.

But there's a couple pieces to the puzzle I haven't sorted out yet, like lighting. I do need some type(s) of lanterns, and this might influence the type of fuel I have on hand. If all run off propane, then fine, but if I use C. fuel then I definitely need to stockpile that too.

Some of my reluctance to have C. fuel on hand is its scarcity in CA. I spent a lot of time trying to find it in reasonable quantity and price and it just doesn't seem to be available. I did find gallons available online for $16 plus shipping (by far the best price I could find).

Figuring 4 gallons is about the same as one 20lb tank, I'm looking at ~$60 for C. fuel vs. $15 for propane. Given the advantages of propane it just doesn't make sense to me.

Not to say having a smaller backup stove is a bad idea, but I think I just talked myself into it being a propane stove, and probably propane lanterns to go with it.

Can you guys recommend a single-burner stove that would allow for feeding it from a 20lb tank or a tree? The Coleman Powerpack doesn't seem to have the best reviews; is there a vintage stove you'd recommend?

Thanks for the tip on opening up the jet for propane. Can you recommend a size? It's easy enough to go up but much harder to size it back down afterwards.

BTW, just got shipping notice on the 413H today, so bare with me if much of what I talk about is still theoretical. I will put it into practice soon enough..

 

Toniok there are simple ones that sit on top of the bottle and remote ones that are like the Coleman Apex except for propane. Those are nice. They show up often on Ebay. The advatage is the low CG and it packs fairly small.

As to the jet size, I just got my pin vise out and started slipping them in until one wouldn't fit and drilled with that one. Don't go too big, it won't take much. One size up and test. If you likey, stoppy. It may not be necessary at all. BTW the jet will be on the tip of the brass tip of the propane adapter.

Propane lanterns work great and are much easier to light. The mantles will generally last longer on propane as well. I would recommend getting a couple different ones for different needs. They are pretty much maintenance free as well. The Coleman Northstar propane lantern gets good reviews and is blindingly bright on high. The tube style mantles are more durable as well.

Invest in a couple of propane refill adapters for 1lb bottles, some extension hoses and an appliance tree that fits onto a 20 lb or larger tank and can feed several lamps or stoves.

Another advantage of going propane is there are a TON of other appliances from ovens to crock pots, to coffee makers, to deep fryers and water heaters that run on propane. OOPS! there goes another paycheck or two.

Mike

 

Toniok, Put a tree on a 20 lb or bigger bottle and you have a lantern fitting on the top. Now attach a hose from the tree to your stove or to two (2) stoves with a splitter connector and you have a kitchen full of cooking. And light.

I really really like the Northstar lanterns (the only gas lantern i do like) because of the light output. And the ease of lighting. (built in igniter)

lance