This is horrifying: http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2013/rnn-ldn-02113.htm?eban=govdel-press-release&cr=25-Jan-2013
What a shame. Very sorry for that girl. Hopefully future accidents can be avoided, especially by using safety bottles. You can't leave it up to the pupils to be the last line of defence so to speak.. Similar thing was in the Swedish papers last summer. In that case I believe a smaller 1 liter container was used. Ignition source wasn't the burner, but electrostatic discharge. Apparently alcohol can build up charge when sloshed around inside a plastic bottle. Goes to show all fuels have their negatives when it comes to safety.
Sad story. Did she pour spirits onto a burning stove? Meaning to fill it as it was going out? What kind of stove? If they had 5 liters of alcohol, it must have been an alcohol stove, you think? In the article they mean ... Methylated Spirits = Alcohol?? Ken in NC
Terrible. I hope she recovers well. Also feel bad for others involved who were just trying to help some kids have fun and now will have to deal with much guilt and self-blame (warranted or not).
Yes, it was an alcohol stove. Almost certain to be a Trangia. "Risk assessments and methods have been revised and spirit stoves will no longer be used on expeditions and other activities." http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/new...pil_scarred_for_life_on_school_trip_1_1831808
Please, can people give more meaningful titles to posts like this? (How about: "Girl caught in alcohol stove fireball"?) I think the subject of the story is much more important and informative than the adjectives and emotions. Yonadav
someone sloshes meths from a 5lt drum onto a lit stove and it's the stove's fault? sympathies to those involved, but wouldn't adequate instruction in addition to using trangia bottles prevent further incidents, rather than the kneejerk reaction of banning them? soon, someome will burn themselves on the hot metal part of a gas stove and they'll also be banned. it'll be just cold food and drinks only for all DOE trips soon, or pub/takeaway meals edit to add....snowgoose beat me to it, and more succinctly too.
One thing is the private tragedy of a 15 year old girl badly burned and of those that let she arrive to such an age without knowing meth may be dangerous,, if not properly handled, a totally different thing is the money media made on the horror of the new, and the obvious politicians reaction, aimed to get the most stupid people approval. If I will be born again, I should like to be born bear, with the right to eat hunters and their pups, and the high probability to be shot dead, if I am not clever enough, and my skin be used as a carpet by the fireplace.
Tetley, the Health and Safety press release states that "A five-litre container of methylated spirits should never have been used to fill a camping stove. Any fuel needed for the trip should have been taken in containers incorporating a safety cut-off valve and kept away from ignition sources. There also should have been a better procedure to follow when filling or refilling the stove." In short, what any sensible Trangia user knows and what the large collection of instructions online say: make sure the stove is cool (not just stopped) before you add fuel, and use the Trangia safety valve bottles. It was an innocent party injured and gross negligence on the part of the adult leaders. You CAN risk assess for that.
I feel sorry for the poor girl and her fellow students as something like that affects them for life. I have taken students on camping trips for almost 30 years and have always found that the very first step is lining up adult chaperones that have experience, common sense, and above all else kids of their own. I've found that parents always make the best chaperones as they generally have that "extra" sense of caution and are constantly scanning the group assigned to them for dangerous "accidents waiting to happen" like this obviously was. Any one of the hundreds of parents I have used on trips like this would have seen that poor girl pick up that jug of fuel and stopped her instantly either physically if close enough or by screaming out the "safety word" that is set up well before hand and drilled into the kids so that they instantly freeze when they hear it. btw....common sense can't be taught, it is only learned well before school age by observing adults who have it. By the time they are at school age, if they haven't "absorbed" common sense it often takes many decades for them to catch up with their more fortunate friends. Believe me I know, I've tried "teaching" common sense for decades and failed miserably at it. There are so many circumstances and actions in life that can trip you up, you can't possibly cover even a small fraction of them. Stan
I have been an adult leader of Boy Scouts for over thirty years. One cannot have immediate supervision of all the kids in a group all the time. Also, some kids are srupid, face that fact. Some kids are rebellious, know everything, and some have never been taught the concept of obeying instructions, or the word "NO". See "know everything". Politicians will do almost anything to win votes, thus the one size fits all regulations covering all aspects of our lives. In my dotage old age Wise and Knowlegable Senior Years, I have become not only a dangerous victim, but I disregard as a matter of course silly gov regulations and the even sillier regulators because, $&#@ them! That includes teaching the kids under my tutelage how to use what the Boy Weenies of America call "Chemical Fueled Stoves". I do this one on one and deny the use of liquid fueled stoves to any caught disregarding safety or correct use of said stoves. For them it's a Sterno Stove and buddy burner until they learn to follow instructions. As they regain my trust they move up to Trangia type burners in the Sterno Stove, then simple petrol stoves such as the Svea 123, then perhaps a Coleman 440 type, then a Whisperlite. Most, however, prefer a gassie such as the MSR Pocket Rocket and that's fine with me. Almost forgot. All of 'em learn to use a real campfire. All carry knives, usually Boy Scout type. Swiss Army Super Tinker preferred. Every kid in my group has a small wood saw and a hand ax/tomahawk. /rant off/ Gerry
I have every sympathy for the girl who was burnt and even a little for the girl who tried to refuel the stove. She had either not been trained or had the type brain freeze that sets in after a hard day hiking (probably after insufficient sleep the night before). The organizers deserve to have the book thrown at them. I was the council who were convicted here. Personally, I would like to see individuals taken to task. From what I remember when I did my Duke of Edinburgh award expeditions we had to carry everything we needed including fuel. I know that it was large group over all but they would have been in small teams and should have planned exactly what they were going to carry, not quite down to the last teaspoon of fuel but the point is had they done so they would have had a much less serious incident. IIRC we had to plan our menu and cook it with the equipment we were going to carry so that we knew that we would have enough fuel in addition to demonstrating that we could cook what we had chosen to carry. This incident happened too far from their home for it to have been a practice camp, so, having five litres of meths on site suggests to me that someone was flouting the expedition rules as well as demonstrating an staggering lack of regard for safety. Thanks to these nincompoops, I can look forward to even more bloody paperwork when I take my scouts on their next overnight hike! Regards John
Back to cheese and pickle sandwiches then. Or camping at MacDonalds. Quote: - "After the hearing, HSE inspector John Crookes said: “This incident was avoidable and the failure to take simple safety measures has led to a young girl being unnecessarily scarred for life.” " How much of this story has been taken at face level on a newspaper report? Without knowing the girl, the precise circumstances surrounding the incident, and what arrangements were in place at the time, comment is gut reaction and quite possibly misplaced. One girl is stated to have been burnt badly due to a second girl pouring meths onto a seemingly failing flame. And even that is from a newspaper report. There will always be accidents as long as people fail to realise the consequences of an action. The action will undoubtedly be triggered by a response to a perceived need or desire. And as Nordicthug rightly says, we all become victims to 'nanny' states when ignorance prevails. One to one instruction is always best. Teach a group, and peer power can disrupt the educational process every time.
In my Army days, myself and a Royal Marines mate were asked to conduct a session of abseiling with a local scout group. My mate was to be the instructor (fully qualified) and I was photographer. He started by giving a safety brief. After a couple of minutes the scout leader stopped him, took him to one side and told him to stop the safety brief as it was 'scaring the kids'. He was bluntly told "No briefing = no abseiling". We had no option but to pack up and go home.
Never, ever believe what you read in newspapers. Anyone who has had multiple personal experiences with the press will confirm that the press never report correctly - even when they have supposedly taken down short hand/recorded on a digital device or handed a press release. This was the second night of camping so it would seem that the first night cooking and breakfast the next day went off without a hitch. I have scoured the internet and there are dozens and dozens of references to this incident – and nowhere is it reported in detail. It is extremely unlikely that the teenagers poured all their fuel from 5 litre containers into their Trangia burners – there would be much waste. It is likely, though purely speculative, that 5 litre containers were there to refill smaller containers. Whatever the capacity of the container, the teenager that poured the meths into the burner was stupid. Funny these days that people can’t be responsible for their own actions – it is always someone else’s fault. They were 15 – young adults - at that age I was working, cycling 44 miles a day round trip. Pre-teen in the cubs before we transferred to the scouts we were using Primus stoves – this was in the 1950’s. What is also stupid is the decision to not to use meths as a fuel in future…stupid, because all it needs is simple instruction which even the stupid should understand. Of course it is sad that one teenager got badly burned – but the reaction to one stupid mistake is typical of the cotton wool Britain that we are now unfortunately living in. But, hey, look on the bright side – Trangia’s now unwanted by the London Borough of Newham should be on sale cheap soon!
Ok, but please, let's go back stove, as the sad story remind me a real issue with trangia burners: they are too small. Even if you rememember to fill it before each use, they will go off before a real coking is done. A bigger "tank" would not badly affect portability neither weight. I love tangia, but a stove that will go off in the middle of a baking job is a pain in the neck, and it calls for refuelling quickly. Now we stovies know what to do, but those stoves are sold at thousands, and they are advertized as a real camp kitchen,and they are, to people that are used to modern kitchen, that if a flame is blown off will authiomaticly turn the gas off. The probability of an accident wound be gratly reduced by let say a burner with at list double capacity. Hellow, Trangia, you lost the UK scout market, before loosing others, would you think about such a simple but huge change??? Orsoorso
People can be truly stupid. I myself have done this very same thing. I am amazed I haven't off'd myself yet, for Darwin surely loves me. Back when I first bought some of those Trangia Swedish surplus kits, I foolishly believed the advertising copy saying these stoves were extremly safe and explosion proof. Now, I know better but for some STOOPID reason my mind took that as meaning you COULD treat alcohol fuel with relative impunity. Stupid stupid stupid. I poured some fresh fuel from the small container included with these kits into a Trangia that was dying out before we were finished with it. Of course a jet of flaming alcohol shot out of the bottle and onto my son. A disaster, but I am glad to say my son has suffered no permanent physical damage, but he does remind me of how I set him on fire more than 10 years later. bword I knew better then, and I know even better now,dropping your guard on saftey from stupidity and complacency is far too easy to do and must be guarded against at all times. That is all it takes for a disaster such as that news article talks about. Coleman, Alcohol, Kero, candles whatever. They can all bite you if you don't take heed of fire saftey precautions. Father of Flambo Junior, Jime Henderson
Greetings, All, Rob is absolutely, without a single doubt, right in his assessment of this horrible accident!! IF we cannot, as a world society, get back to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, then we, as a species, are on the way down the drain. Other, more intelligent life forms will, undoubtedly, replace us, someday, and I am sure that, if they use flammable devices, they will be smart enough to do things the proper way, and if there IS an accident, to take absolute responsibility for doing something stupid to being it on!!! Both SB and I feel horrible for the little Gal that was burned, and wish her all the best in her recovery. But, because she is not being taught to accept the fact that SHE made a mistake, she will forever believe that stoves, and stove fuels are all BAD!! We do not do ourselves, nor her, any service by letting this misguided thought pattern continue to run the show. Just my thoughts, and without question, I'm sure someone here will disagree with me. But, Rob's right, and I totally agree with him. Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc (who has made his own share of mistakes in dealing with fire, fuels, guns, knives, and other such items, and who has learned NOT to be stupid when handling such things, and thereby to be safer, and happier in their usage.)
Won't ever be me disagreeing with you on that, Doc. Spot on. J (who has likewise burnt, shocked, frozen, pinched, cut, bruised and otherwise injured himself thru his own misguided actions, and yet never wished for a nanny-state to cushion his fall)
