Hello Stovers, I saw that Canola oil was mentioned in a thread about bio diesel back in 2004, so this newcomer decided to start a new thread... Is there anybody who has more information on stoves for vegetable oils, like sunflower, rapeseed or jatropha oil? These oils have a high viscosity and a high flash point (180 degrees Celsius and higher). The only design on vegetable oil I could find is the one developed at the University of Hohemheim and took over by Siemens Bosch Hausger?te. Also Leyte State University at the Philippines was involved with the testing of the stoves, who named the stove the ?Protos stove?. More information on these commercial stove can be found at: http://www.plantoilcooker.org/ http://www.neda8.ph/eddnews/stove/stove.htm http://www.jatropha.org/documents/stumpf-kocher-02-09.pdf Other activity on this field (REDI and Kakute) is mentioned on: http://www.jatropha.de/ ->"use of the oil" -> "for cooking" An Indian wick stove: http://www.saipetro.com/ My question is: are there more designs or initiatives for these kind of stoves? Are there forum members with experience in using these fuels in stoves? Any information on this subject is welcome! Best regards, Erik
..... more , similar http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_heaters.html#lamps. interesting ... the ethanol stove running 50/50 , w/w , water/ethanol . the only ,sensible ,liquid fuels for the future ... veg & alcohol. nick
Thanks Nick, I was familiar with this information. We got the discussion on this topic going on: http://bioenergylists.org/en/jatrophaprotzen http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves_listserv.repp.org/2006-September/004036.html http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves_listserv.repp.org/2006-September/004037.html Any helpfull advise or comments are welcome. Greetings, Erik
.. thanks eric ... i for one am following these links with interest. bio fuels are the way forwards .. interesting to note .. a finding of biodiesel burning with a green flame ..i can provoke green flames in a paraffin roarer burner ... having liberally veg oiled the pump washer . keep it in the green?? nick
Perhaps I should be saying that ? Anyway, I'm wondering if my recent green flamed Opti. 99 & 123 may have been caused by some "Bio." impurities in the dry cleaning fluid I was using as a fuel Spudz
SPUDZ Please take my word for it. Your green flame was the result of burning a fuel containing a Chlorinated hydrocarbon. Take my word for it, it is not good for your health and possibly longevity. Ken H.
Hey, Ken, Man, those Irishmen are sometimes some stubborn little bast......., er, I mean FELLOWS, aren't they??!!??!! #-o 8-[ (Love ya', Brother Spudz!!!) Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc Mark (not a stubborn bone in me body......MAN, DID YOU JUST FEEL THAT LIGHTNING BOLT???!!!!)
Doc, Have you been talking with Red Haired Mary ? Anyway, rest assured, Ken and all, that the 'Gren Flame Pseudo Fuel' has been banished. I just wanted to hear you say 'Chlorinated hydrocarbon' one more time, it gives me goose - bumps. Mornin' all Spudz
GOt a pic or two of these stoves? Was gauuna make a 50 % alcohol one at one stage when I get my heat aroung the burner properly. Couldn't we just put a 20 thou nipple and restrictor in a normal silent kero burner to achieve the same thing? Run it on 50% metho or more??? Or does the head get too hot for that? Doesn't vaporize properly or something. Like the burner but I 'm into more the hissy silents at the moment. Iv'e read claims of new type remote burners using diesel as fuel and maybe canola oil. But at more for per litre than kero etc haven't gone into it as far as maybe I should. I though they would smell like a chip shop in full swing.Fat and greassy. Any ideas there brassnipples. Know you've been doing this for a long while and been out in the big wide world more than me.. 8)
Erik, You seem to be connected with the research going on in this area. As a favor, can you occasionally post new developments in this area on this forum, to keep this thread alive? I'm betting that you've planted a seed of thought among some in this group. It probably won't be too long before someone here experiments with some kind of plant oil fuel. ....Arch
Dear Arch, barrabruce and other interested, You can find lots of information and pictures on the urls in my previous posts... Thanks for your posts and interest. At a volunteer group called Working Group of Development Techniques based in the Netherlands, http://www.wot.utwente.nl/, we received a question about using plant oil as cooking fuel. The oil would substitute for coal, charcoal, dung (India) and fossil fuels in developing countries. This was the reason to start investigate what has already been done. And I was hoping that maybe somebody on this forum also had done some experiments or maybe was busy with modification of a stove to burn vegetable oils. Come out of your garage and share your experiences!! The problem of the oil is its high viscosity and also the high flashpoint of the oil(for Jatropha oil about 180 degrees Celsius and higher/ that?s 355 degrees F for you Americans ; for other oils like Canola the problem is the same). Wicks choke up after 2 to 5 hours of burning. http://www.jatropha.org/lamps/protzen2.html You can find other cooking stoves in development on: http://www.jatropha.de/cooker/index.html Further there is the Kakute, which you can find on: http://bioenergylists.org/en/kakutestove The most likely (in my opinion) initiative to come to a break-through is the Protos (Hohenheim University Germany /Braun Siemens Hausgerate/ Leyte University Philippines) http://bioenergylists.org/en/protosjatropha http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/0,1518,413807,00.html (in German, BUT with great pictures!!) That's about it! Or your replies have to prove otherwise... Cheers, Erik
So whats wrong with a kero stove?? Not hot enough or too much fluid to keep it vapourizing? IT it ws the latter I suppose a smaller jet and a bit of pressure may help but haven't done enough yet. Will look on the threads you listed. The german one aparently needs percise engineering to work. Isn't it a bit over the other way. I mean I like the metho one 'cos they can make it with a bottle and a few fittings. Stop cock/ ball brearing /nipple bit of tubing etc.
Not hot enough to break the whole molecule and get rid of all cracking products. vegetable oil illustration from http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#howprocess In comparison with kerosene: kerosene consist of carbon chains from the C12 to C15 range.
Hi Erik This is definitely an extension of the CCS University syllabus ! I hated Chemistry, have no idea what your diagram means ( but am most impressed ), but have read your various links and if we can move to cooking with renewable fuels then that is clearly a plus. Great stuff !
Barrabruce and others interested, The Protos stove is under development and I hope it can make a break-trough. I agree with you that alcohol is a far more easier fuel. And this stove is really advanced, and maybe that makes it too expensive for developing countries. More news on the Protos: http://news.inq7.net/nation/index.php?index=1&story_id=73252 Note that the are aiming on a selling price of 2000 Phillipine Peso = 40 USD (according to oanda.com)!!. Here some hotlinking to a previous prototype (pictures by Elmar Stumpf on http://www.jatropha.org) How the stove works, pressurizing and vapourizing of the vegetable oil: |imgRemoved| The vaporizer: |imgRemoved| One of the prototypes: |imgRemoved| Cheers, Erik
Guys, You are killing me with all the technical jargon. Just tell us all when and where we can buy one and then let the test group begin. I believe they should have contacted the forum and the members and had us conduct the field tests and prototypes. Evil
Erik, From your drawings, the "Original" vaporizer looks just like the one on an MSR X-GK. http://www.msrcorp.com/stoves/xgk.asp The "Modified" one looks like the vaporizer on a SnowPeak GigaPower white gas stove. https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/4038 Has there been any thought of changing jets on these (or other existing) stoves, and trying to run them at the higher temperature? (The SnowPeak would also require a different burner.) How do you prime a vegetable oil stove? Does methanol get to a high enough temperature? ....Arch
First of all, it are NOT my drawings, but come from a document by Elmar Stumpf on: http://www.jatropha.de/cooker/stump-tx.htm Stumpf did indeed use a MSR-X-GK for first tests and they used kerosene as a primer. Pictures are on: http://www.jatropha.de/cooker/cooker-g.htm. On one of them you can see two bottles. And also they mixed the plant oil with gasoline or kerosene. Stumpf and fellow researchers state: "..... Mixtures of 25, 50, 70, and 90 % plant oil with kerosene were used for the following experiments. Utilization of gasoline instead of kerosene did not lead to distinct results. Moreover, pure plant oil was tested also. As for nomenclature, a mixture containing 25 % plant oil and 75 % kerosene is called a "25 % mixture". For ignition of the MSR-X-GK, fuel is discharged in a dish below flame holder and vaporizer. Within the dish a web is placed as support medium to enable ignition of the fuel with a match. After lighting the heat generated by fuel combustion is sufficient to start the cooker. Ignition of the stove without changes is possible for mixtures up to 50 % plant oil. Even 90 % mixtures can get ignited but need the above described fiber glass mat instead of the web as support medium. Nevertheless, this method of heating up the stove can not be applied for pure plant oil. According to the amount of plant oil in the fuel the ignition time of the stove increased from 45 seconds for the 25% mixture to over 5 minutes for the 90% mixture. In each case, the cooker burns with a yellow flame under soot production right after start-up. This yellow flame changes into a blue flame after 1 minute or 5 minutes for the 25 % and the 90 % mixture, respectively. The higher the amount of plant oil in the fuel, the more unstable the combustion and the more fluttering of the flame. For ignition of the stove with pure plant oil an external flame from a gas burner is needed heating up the vaporizer for 30 seconds. The flame of the cooker fueled by pure plant oil is very unstable changing its color continuously between yellow and blue. The nozzle clog up within about 20 minutes. Since ignition of plant oils occurs at higher temperatures than ignition of kerosene the above described phenomena are explainable. Construction of a new vaporizer enhanced the suitability of the cooker for plant oil mixture as well as for pure plant oil. With the new vaporizer the retention time of plant oil within the flame is increased considerably. The new vaporizer is made from a copper pipe with a diameter of 6 mm. ...." I have found different multi-fuel camping stoves on the web, like the one from MSR you suggest, or for instance the Optimus Nova http://www.optimus.se/product.asp?id=7 Nice stoves but I don't know if they can handle vegetable oils. Also it could be that there is some optimal vaporizer configuration Anyone ever tried veggie oils in their burners? Which vaporizer is more suitable for vegetable oils and why?
Hi Erik, Sorry, I didn't intend to attribute the drawings to you -- I should have referred to them as "the drawings in your previous post". My feeling is that the X-GK is probably the best suited commercially-available stove for vegetable oils. It has a large diameter fuel line and a reputation of being able to burn anything (which the pictures at jatropha.de can only enhance ) I think it's clear from the photos, though, that the X-GK is not well suited to that heavy a fuel. Those high yellow flames in the "burning phase" photo and the carbon-covered body of the stove are clear signs that it isn't happy. The noted tendency to clog is also a very bad sign. I think that designing a new burner with a more aggressive (hotter) vaporizer (as they're doing) is the best approach. The experimeneters should also try different jet diameters and jet-to-burning-plate distances. I presume the kerosene "primer" is being lit on some kind of a matrix (like wadded paper), as it is difficult to light kero directly. That's also very smoky. The best way to prime this beast is, I suppose, a whole different subject. ....Arch
Just catching up here on the latest. Sorry but chemistry for me was a young beutiful big boobed teacher in a mini skirt. Fully sexually acitve. http://www.journeytoforever.org/media/t/triglyc.jpg So I can't remember much about balls and sticks and stuff (components of molecules etc)like that. Still agreat thread and interested even though I'm not up with all this stuff YET. Bit like spuds. I'd have ago at making one but probably be better off buying one to help support the cause. Small silent one to fit in a trangia set up would be ideal but I may be jumping the gun a little as the big roarers are having troubles. How about a huge vavourizer/burner plate like in the bottom of a silent burner(disky thing where the pipes join up into) but used as deflector instead?? Distance between the two plates may be critical for not clogging but it would surely heat some gear up in there. surface area/volume.would be much greater than a coil. I thinks and the surface area it heats would be massive to a coil?? Or have I just flipped out again? Regards Bruce. 8) I didn't think of something did I??
