Help identify a Coleman 2 burner suit case please

@OMC, @shagratork
You are both awesome!

 

International Coleman Collectors Club Inc. Guide to Vintage Coleman Products 1900-1983 Page 268 Canadian Coleman Model 4K ‘Tourist’, early production in the years 1951-1955 - later production had flat bar windscreen braces and not the bent wire type.

 

Warning, the following post is pure conjecture by a novice fueled on too much early morning coffee in the garage staring at the orphan.


Looking at the assembly and mounting of the Manifold and burner assembly in the orphan, it doesn't appear to be a back yard cut and tuck job.


I have been thinking about the mounting of the Manifold/burner assembly in both the 4H and the 4K.

With the M/B assembly of the 4H being cast, it appears some thought was given to the torsional stress/flex that the case and assembly may encounter in use.

(A case that by design was as light as possible, but by nature would be subjected to fairly rough use, camp pack up and the poor stove being loaded into the family wagon either under or amongst all the other equipment, the case could see quite some weight/stress, causing flexing, not a good situation for cast assemblies.)


The addition in the 4H of a strengthened tray/carriage to the base under the manifold and main burner, and extra strength pressings to the base under the secondary burner mounting point may have been to address and limit some case bottom flex/stress transfer to the assembly?

Were there any known stress cracking issues with the 4H M/B assembly?


Looking at the 4K we see a new mounting design altogether.


The burners are now mounted on an 'air bridge' made of light pressed steel and suspended above the case bottom, welded to each end/side of the case- complete isolation from bottom flex.

The manifold itself is also mounted to the case by a fairly light bracket, which would also allow some absorption of stress flex/shock?


So in the pursuit of releasing a new product to market (the 4K) using what they already had-cast, did the designers first try to address the isolation of stress to the then current cast M/B assembly by adding the 'air bridge' for the burners and a redesigned pedestal for the manifold with the inclusion of a steel C shaped 'shock absorber' between base and Manifold?

Although the securing screw passes straight through this bracket to the burner, and would transfer any point loading from the actual screw head, general base flex stress would/may be reduced.

Start of early 4K production?


All's well until those young whipper snappers, Bob from finance and Tom from Engineering get together and tell those good old cast boys... your mad... new M/A assembly made of steel!, lighter, cheaper production, and no more stress issues! (John and Tom were promoted) and the 4k is in production with the new steel M/B assembly.

Is the 'orphan' an example of the good old cast boys last hurrah?

Still doesn't explain the orphans alloy tank tho, unless it was just the use of parts available?

Pure conjecture and madness on my behalf.
No more coffee today.


Cheers

Barrett

 

Hi
Just an update to show what I found once I got the Manifold/burner assembly out.

Manifold has the number 6337 -as per Presscall's 4H
On the upper section above that, it also has the numeral 5-


Presscall's 4H manifold also has a numeral there but I can't make out whether it is a 3,5,6 or 8?

The round manifold mounting pedestal is part of original casting, not a later addition.
It is drilled and threaded to a blank, as in the threads stop in solid metal rather than having been drilled all the way through into the inlet duct.


Unlike Presscall's 4H burner casting which is numbered 6336, there are no numbers on this burner casting at all.

Also on the 4H burner there is a casting line on the under side of the secondary, this is absent on this burner too.
The burner mounting holes are drilled and threaded right through into the burner duct, centered under each burner ring.
Pic of whole M/B assembly shows that the manifold mounting is set centrally under the inlet duct and at 90° to the two burner mountings, rather than offset like the 4H 6337 manifold.

Pic of case for reference of mounting positions.


Summary,
different castings of both the manifold and burner assembly to the 4H, so definitely not a repurposed 4H M/B assembly fitted into this 4k case.

Cheers
Barrett

 

Barrett,
I want to thank you for the details you're providing.
This latest clarification is helpful I've followed along and to your credit I was onboard with your earlier observation that the casting differed, noting the pedestals.

I wonder if @Tony Press might be aware of any Coleman stoves & lamps made in Australia that used any "made in canada" cast iron parts? (I would doubt it but myself, I don't know either way)
If not, then there are very few models that the burner could have come from.

Can we find out about those few models... I believe, a profitable, Toronto plant was closed in '89. My impression is this was a bad situation all-around, done in haste by outsiders and not handled well. 80 years of historical info that was readily available in '88 had vanished with the plant closing, is my impression.
Make historical inquiries to Witchita can be a beautiful thing, same inquiries attempted re Toronto … nothing there, my impression. Damn shame too from what I see, Toronto makers and products were 2nd to none.

SO, Aussie models aside, although there are only a few other models to consider (other than the 4H & 4K) finding details for some models will be a challenge to say the least.
-------------
Your explanation makes sense so not a problem in your context but … re "4H" Manifold / Burner assembly:

> there could be more than one version used in the 4H -and-

> the same complete burner asm. is likely used in other models -and-

> a catalog / in book) can show
~same complete burner asm., same part no.s spanning multiple years maybe on multiple models
BUT with 2 parts in-hand
~ the parts can differ from one to another. Per book they're the same (given that, the parts "should be" swappable).
-------

Use of different versions of parts is part of all camp stove history which goes hand in hand with different versions of a same model No.s.

I know with certainty the legendary team of stove [burner] makers in Toronto did improve their current offerings during production runs (so products changed but not reflected in-book).
thx omc

 

Thank you @OMC for another thoughtful and interesting reply.

It is the idiosyncrasies of things that interest me, trying to know as much as I can about things and being able to relay that information when asked.
That is why this new to me 'hobby' of stove collecting has really got my interest.

I'm not a serious collector looking for the ultra rare finds, my acquisitions need to fit a simple criteria, that being- they interest me, have some practical use and fit my (small and opportunistic) budget.

I was interested in a Coleman suitcase of any model or year and appear to have been fortunate enough to accidentally find one of added interest to me due to its idiosyncrasies.

I love reading the threads by those here with vast experience and knowledge, whether the object of interest be of a rare old find or a contemporary functional, well designed stove or accessories.

So the posting of my observations of this Coleman (or any stove) are not to try and proclaim some rarity, but rather invite experienced clarification to the things that are unknown to me.
And in doing so I also hope that my simplistic observations, questions and the corresponding discussions can (without driving everyone nuts) add in some small way to the vast information held within CCS and its members for future reference.

Soon this Coleman will enter active duty with the Barrett's, no doubt on 4x4 camping trips with my boy and mates (can't see it making it into my pack for mountain coffee lol)

At which point, it's deployment will hopefully generate the question of "what the hell is that this time Barrett?"
My reply will be from what I have learnt about it from all of the members and contributors on CCS,
That....appears to be a Canadian Coleman 4K from the early 1950's, that interestingly has a cast manifold and burner assembly and a Everdur tank, both not generally associated with the 4K range, so it may be a factory oddity or a later alteration/ frankie my a previous owner, the points of interest are........

And in the wider scheme of Barrett life and stoves, that will usually be enough to either stimulate a little beer talk.... or sighs and head shaking as me mates scurry away to attend to some urgent matter...

Whilst I'd still love to know the true history of this oddity and will continue to look for answers, I'm happy with what I have learnt from everyone's generous time given to research and contribute, and certainly look forward to anymore input that may be forthcoming.
So thank you all!

Cleaning and pondering continues.

Cheers
Barrett

 

@OMC

I don’t know of any Australian-made Coleman stoves fitted with Canadian Coleman cast iron burners - but I’ve only seen a relative small number of the Aussie Coleman stoves. I am visiting another Aussie member today and will check his stoves.

I’ll also send a PM to Aussie members and ask them to report back here.

Tony

 

Thank you @Tony Press

 

@Barret @OMC

This has been a very interesting read. I don't have any Made in Australia Coleman suitcase stoves. I'm trying to understand why the question was asked if Australian made stoves had Canadian made cast burners in them and what that would mean in this topic if either negative or positive to the question. Forgive me, I simply don't know enough about stoves to just 'get' what it would mean.

Barret,

I think there are stoves that were made that collectors aren't aware of. They may have only been made for a short period, they may not have been good sellers so the production was promptly cancelled.

Why I say that is, here you have your own stove that very interested and knowledgeable collectors can't figure out. Your stove isn't alone though.

I have a Coleman suitcase stove that I spent a lot of time trying to determine what it was. I started a topic on this forum and also twice on the CCF as well as messaged people that are well known for their Coleman stove expertise and I could never get an answer as to what my stove model No actually is.

Personally, I think it has to be a Made in Canada 2E. The problem is, the Coleman experts say Coleman Canada didn't manufacture a 2E.

There are likely to be other short lived stoves or transitional type stoves that may have been deleted between Coleman catalogues so they never made the catalogues.

 

@OMC & @Barrett

For what it’s worth, here’s an Australian-made Coleman stove with a cast burner. There no stamping on the burner to identify where the burner itself was manufactured.













This stove is owned by another Tasmanian collector.


I have a CJ Thomas (Melbourne, Australia) catalogue from the 1950s that has the Coleman "Jubilee" (Model 303) stove in it:






The same catalogue has the Coleman "Bushman (Model 404) listed. Note it has an Evidur tank:





Note that this 1950s catalogue lists "Australian made" Coleman products as well as imported Coleman products.


Note also the stoves on p7 of this Australian Coleman-Thomas catalogue from 1947. The items in the catalogue are imported Coleman products. The lower stove has an Evadur tank.

https://classiccampstoves.com/attachments/1947-cj-thomas-service-folio-pdf.176753/


Cheers

Tony

 

@Matty thanks for your comments.

@Tony Press Thank you for giving your time to research.
The catalog is interesting in that it shows that Everdur tanks were still in use in time line of the appearance of the first 4K cases.
All so of interest to me was the number of corrugated and flat burner rings in each stoves parts lists, 4 corro and 5 flat for main and 3 corro and 4 flat for secondarys, my stove has 4 corrugated and hence 5 flats in both burners.
I'm not sure if tank valve knob colour is of any timeline significance, mine is black rather than red on the 303.

Again, thanks Tony, and everyone, as it is certainly all interesting to me.

Cheers
Barrett

 

@Barrett

When I can get the file size for the CJ Thomas catalogue right, I’ll put it in the Reference Library.

Cheers

Tony

 

My thanks too to Matty
and to Tony for contributing more relevant detail to consider and relates to my "...parts … indicative of 30s / 40s (vs 50s).
FWIW based on US stoves? btw (vs Toronto or Aussie-Canada)."

Interesting,
and I hadn't considered table stoves.
We see:
the "50s" table stove with same burner asm. and tank as the '47 no.404 (<-- per book, no approx. year for 404 in gallery , nor year range for 404). and
cast iron burner asms. and Everdur tanks were still used in some 50s stove production, hmmm .
----------
We do not see any hint of alteration to 4K case to accommodate replacement parts.
After reviewing possibilities, most in-hand (it did not yield us anything new really ), the 4K mounting points (holes in 4K case) work as-is for
tanks
and
burner asms.
from older models (6J) and newer models (4M) the 4K including whatever burner asm. Barret has in there now. So with mounting points I found nothing indicative of his burner & tank being original, or not as is current suggestion. Nor what burner is in there.

There may be nothing simple re: burner development timeline and the band-a-blue, <-- all of that is a complex story unto itself.

I still have questions.
If we scroll up Barrett was maybe saying that's all for now, he said it well +1
I too would like to know more of this oddity. I am thankful for what we learned from research here and will follow the post, looking forward to anymore input that may be forthcoming.
thx omc
PS I have somethings ongoing re this and I will like to hear back on 2 related PM inquiries but once done, it's not likely that I'll have anything to add.

 

Hi

Just an update for reference.
Cleaning the orphan continues and found more markings on the manifold.
This almost looks like a Stamping rather than casting.
It's on the other side of manifold from the 6337 and numeral 5 casting is and where the generator enters.


Appears to be an interlinked E & P, hard to know if the upright of what appears to be a uppercase E is there or not due to metal condition, but I think it's a uppercase E.



I had wiped some white autosol into it to highlight the very shallow letters.

I'll crack the model yet lol

Cheers
Barrett

 

Hi All

Just an update after a quick "Barrett Rustoration" of the Orphan

As with the Genesis of my stove hobby, my original Optimus 22, I decided that as a user the Coleman deserves to wear its battle scars of service with pride rather than a full resto..... suits my skill level better too lol.

I used a very weak oxalic acid bath for the the lower case and iron ware etc.
The lid I hand cleaned to avoid too much damage to what is left of the external painted Coleman logo and to protect the internal decal.... well that was a fail... some water tracked inside and was wetting the internal trasfer.... in a moment of brain fade I grabed a paper towel and wiped rather than dab... result is evident... (I hate my stupidity some days)

After the clean up everything was hand wiped with a rust converter and then all but the lid internal surface was coated with clear coat.

I'm happy enough now that it'll handle a summer of duty with the Barrett's, after which I can decide its future requirements depending how it holds up.

As brought home


Now


I love that the paint below the valve has been worn off the instruction letting by use


as too around the fuel cap where years of fingers rubbing have worn the paint thin.


Pics from first real burn last night, secondary burner cap and portions of the top 2 rings under it were glowing red and I'm not sure why, too rich? rings need a better clean than i achieved? Will have another look later.


So pretty happy now...... tho it still niggles me not knowing its true identity, I will probably take Cottage Hill Bill's original reply suggestion of posting it over on CCF for one last hurrah at identification as to the origin/details of the cast iron manifold and burner assembly as this really interests me, and may be of interest there.

Thank you to all that have contributed to this thread, I really appreciate the time, effort and knowledge that you have shared.

Cheers
Barrett

 

Hi All

Re glowing secondary burner cap and partial rings noted above.

Took the cap and rings off to clean with a brass wire wheel on a drill, this cleaned them more than the weak oxalic acid bath and my hand cleaning had.
When I got the stove the burner cap securing screws were very tight and when reassembling, whilst not going crazy and as tight as originally found, I had made sure they were tight.

I have since read that these should only be tightened, nipped up just beyond finger tight.
Sure enough after a thorough clean and closer look, the corrugated/waffle rings showed areas where their wave height/depth had been reduced and the flat rings indented with a wave pattern from the increased pressure applied over how many years, there was pitting at each point of indentation.

Flatten flat rings with hammer on a flat steel surface as much as possible and looked at how to restore wave height/depth to corrugated rings where needed..... not bl..dy easy, and could do with more attention or new rings.

Back together with securing screw-s only just nipped up and almost no cap or ring glow at full noise.


So my thoughts are that the over tightened cap and ring assembly had cut flow to a point where some internal/underburn was taking place, something to watch if new to Coleman's and not already aware like I wasn't.

Cheers
Barrett

 

OLD THREAD
In light of Boogy having same stove,...

@Barrett calling this an early 4K has gained support.
The case would make it an early 4K, and if you're right (seems like you are) the cast iron burner in the early 4K case would make these the earliest 4K examples. It fits, so far, good.

Sub Topic: the GRATE
@Boogy mentioned, in link above, "I’ll make a new grill for it too."
I'm not sure if there is an image of 4K grate.
The subsequent model 4M continued use of this case. As you build 4K grate the 4M layout and specs may interest you:
8 rods attach by 2 across with spacing as shown, has wide gap in middle. Grate almost covers entire opening... vs many leave gaps at sides.
4M grate is 15 1/4 x 10 5/16" made from 7/32” rod.

click to enlarge (btw grate is upside down in this image)

With it's rounded case & everdur tank I'm impressed w/this old model.
congrats to you both omc

 

Thanks @OMC and @Boogy , it's been interesting to revisit this thread and think about the heritage of the stove again, my stove has become a regular and dependable user, and everytime I light it I still wonder about its origins.
This stove and my 530 sealed my interest in Coleman products which soon spread to their lanterns too.
I wonder when Coleman Canada first started exporting to NZ? My earliest CA lantern is a 1945 242b.
Are these 2 stoves a case of Coleman CA wishing/needing to introduce a new model to our market and deciding to run with their development 4k stove case fitted with previous model burner assembly for evaluation, subsequent market feedback may have indicated that whilst a acceptable stove operation wise the weight was a detractor, therefore confirming Coleman's development teams pursuit of producing the pressed steel burner assembly to save on weight and manufacturing costs for future products, of which the widely accepted 4k of the early 1950's became the first?
Pure speculation on my behalf of course.
Either way it has certainly reinvigorated my wish to know more about my trusty user and Coleman in general, it's part of the fun, the research and hunt...

Cheers
Barrett

 

Well for what it's worth here's my embossed as a 4K stove. Maybe this will help. Every thing sounds the same except you're missing the Model 4K embossing. Strange things happen. lol

 

Thanks omc I’ll take note of that concerning the grill.just got to fine the time now at work!