As a beginning stovie in a location that enjoys a proper winter, I have of course been gleefully running a tournament of completely unscientific cold-weather tea-brewing contests between pairs of stoves. I've learnt a few things which will be obvious to the old hands but surprised me and might be worth noting (and which lead to some questions): Trangia burners have a big advantage for winter use that I haven't seen mentioned: they can be set up with your mitts on. I use mine in a Clikstand (someday I'll get a T25 ...) and after setting everything up I slip one hand out of a mitt for only a few seconds to flick a lighter (with a little paper towel folded into the central well as a wick I've found that the alcohol lights in a second or two even at -23 °C or -10 °F weather, though the fuel may have been a little warmer as I didn't walk very far for the test). For my Svea 123, there's a meaningful difference between freezing weather performance and Canadian winter performance. Around freezing I've had no trouble making hot chocolate on it. At -23 °C, it's unpleasant to leave a hand bare long enough to get the control key sorted and the priming fuel ready to go (more practice would doubtless help). Worse, though the burner roared blue after two primes, it soon sputtered back to a yellow flame. Not the flareup of liquid fuel coming out, just the candle-like flame of a weak or low-pressure stream of vapour. I'm guessing that the burner couldn't keep the tank hot enough to maintain pressure. I've seen reports of Svea use in such conditions, so I assume that I wasn't doing enough to insulate the stove. I did set it on a piece of 1/4" plywood to insulate it from the snow (a trick I learnt here, thanks @Nordicthug!). What would be adequate isolation of a Svea 123 from the surrounding air and wind? I've been wary of enclosing the stove for fear of overheating the tank and creating a bomb, but under winter conditions that's presumably not a significant risk. Of the two Coleman single-burners I have in my closet, the 505 lights with no trouble in winter weather. Just pump 30 times, turn the red valve to "light", ignite, let it warm up on the fuel-air mixture for a minute, turn the valve to "run" and you're in business. But the 400 is much fussier in the cold, often flaming out during the warmup phase. That surprised me because the burners seems superficially similar (same two-valve setup, similar-looking generator tubes, etc.) I noticed that the 400's instructions specify priming paste for sub-freezing use and 60 strokes of pumping during the warmup phase, whereas the 505's don't, so maybe there is an internal difference between the stoves. The 400 seems to have a reputation for fiddliness here that the 505 doesn't share. Is there some difference in the plumbing of the two designs? Does the 505's larger tank have more airspace? Or is this a sign that my 400 needs some fettling? Just some observations and questions from my moonlit evenings on the building roof. Comments welcome.
My dog and I were out a couple nights ago for a night out, AM temp was 22 or 23F. Walked in to a spot over snow. I like my old MSR stoves for melting snow and the ability to bring enough fuel to run quite a bit and warm cold digits while cooking. My fingers get real cold packing up gear in the morning, so my stove of whatever I bring will run 60 to 90 minutes while eating breakfast and packing up. Usually waiting a bit after shutdown to let the stove cool. I find the 123 a little bothersome to add priming fuel, attach ws, key, light. So I only use a 123 in warmer temps so my fingers don't get cold and loose strength. You can check the fount/tank/canister of a stove to see how hot it is by touching it with bare hands, skimming briefly at first, then longer contact if things are still safe. Even isobutane stoves can be enclosed in a ws for efficiency, if worried about a bomb, check the canister, if cool or cold, you are still good to go. People don't think about things, just they are using fire and freak out some. Duane
I agree the 400 is a bit fussy in the cold. It needs a preheat. I prefer the 550B since it instant lights down to about 25F. Then, to preheat in colder temps there is a solid trough in the burner bowl where you can pour alcohol. A little toilet paper wick helps the cold alcohol to light. The adjustable feet can tilt the stove to pool the alcohol under the generator for preheating. My 400 and 400A have gone down the road. I don’t have a 505. Like many Coleman single burners, the 550B has an irreplaceable generator, hence its fatal flaw. The 502 has a nice straight cleanable generator. It also needs a preheat below about 40F, but it also has a solid bowl for alcohol. I have three 502s and they all need preheat below 40F. I think the 123 is nice in moderately cold weather but is too fiddly with much assembly and is too tippy. I don’t live where it gets any colder than about 10F and the 123 runs in that temp, but for me it is a warm weather stove. It is best in the Sigg cookset where the wind is blocked and it isn’t tippy.
Re: Svea 123, Any self-pressurizing stove is going to be limited by cold surroundings. Back when the world was young, and I thought my 123 was a winter stove, we used to take a scrap of ensolite foam pad to put under the stove. I think I still have an ensolite pad somewhere with a charred corner, when priming got a bit out of hand. The problem is that, as the temperature drops, the cold (ground, air, wind) cool the stove faster than the burner can heat it. The same equation is operating for the pot and whatever you’re trying to heat in it. This is what finally drove me to purchase my second stove, an MSR X-GK, and relegate the Svea to warmer climes. ….Arch
This morning it was 22F on my screen porch. For coffee water, I used one of my 550B stoves, which sat out all night. It instant lit without additional prime and was blue and running in ten seconds.
@Teaheater Thanks for sharing your “cold” observations. Good to learn from others experiences. If you add a ring of Carbon Felt on the Svea 123 (spirit cup) - it will greatly improve the preheat and thus build up a better start-pressure. A thick string of glassfiber wick can also do the trick. Adding a pump (requires the pump-filler cap as well) will let you pre-build a good pressure before lighting your stove. As you and others have observed, the 123 can be a bit finicky to operate when its cold - Personally I never made friends with the pot-supporting “Cage”, key-chain and such on my 123 stove, so I sold it. The 123/123R I use in my Sigg Tourist without that cage works wonders. Have you ever tried a cookset like that?
I ran my 123 several times about 0f, without a pump, and it was slow going at first, esp when you are looking forward to something warm. Eventually it gets going.
Thanks for all the comments. It's nice to get some corroborating testimony (as well as good advice). I had another go last night at -17 °C / 0 °F and with somewhat better screening (cardboard box on one side, plywood board on another, banked-up snow on the third, me on the fourth) and with a suitably hefty alcohol prime the 123 did get going and eventually produced hot tea. But the stove itself never get more than lukewarm to the touch (good tip @hikerduane), so it would have benefited from being further enclosed. I've never seen one of the Sigg Tourist sets in person, though they do look like just the ticket. If one comes my way I'll be sure to grab it. In the meantime I might try to improvise something with aluminium flashing. I also messed with the Colemans under the same conditions, and a little priming with alcohol definitely helped. I couldn't light the alcohol without a wick, but with an improvised one things went smoothly enough. I'm a convert to wicks now, at least for cold-weather priming. Everything seems to improve with a wick. I'll seek out some of the carbon felt that @Harder D. Soerensen suggested, or at least be sure to keep some paper towel or toilet paper handy with my vial of priming alcohol. I do suspect that part of my trouble with the 400 is a dirty jet (only part, mind you, since everyone else seems to find them fiddly). I always give a few strokes with the cleaning needle (black lever) before trying to light, but last night I tried an extra prick as the flame was fluttering away ineffectually during the warmup and the stove instantly went to full roar. Time to open up the burner and take a look. And yes, while all of this is an entertaining challenge a 5-minute walk from home, I'd want something more predictable and reliable if my safety depended on being able to start a stove with cold hands. I'll have a dig through old threads for recommendations. @ArchMc how have you found the X-GK, since you seem to have bought it with just that remit in mind?
Morning, @Teaheater , Welcome to CCS! I, too, have used the SVEA123 in very cold weather, and like others, I have usually used the pump for it, which helped a lot. But, @ArchMc is right, the MSR X-GK is THE stove to use in deep cold, and at altitude! We have used them in temps well below freezing, and none of them have ever failed us. The X-GK family was designed for just such situations, and even today, it fulfills it's design role perfectly! I do have to toss in my 'tuppence about using the Coleman M400 in the cold. That stove was our very first backpacking stove, and we've used it at altitude, and in freezing weather without a problem. Of course, we use insulation under the stove, and a very good folding metal windscreen around it. I remember one very cold night in Oregon, when we setup camp near some deer hunters. We fired up our M400 and made a cup of soup and some tea, then whilst enjoying the warmth of those, we made a pot of spaghetti with Marinara sauce. The stove worked perfectly. But, that night was so cold that poor Sweet Bride, who's sleeping bag was rated for 5°F, could NOT fall asleep due to the deep cold! My bag was rated at -5°F, so I swapped bags with her, and that worked, after a fashion. She warmed up and finally got to sleep, and I slept, too, just not as warm as I'd like to be! The next day the deer hunters came over to see what gear we were using. They were not really prepared for weather that cold, and were packing it up to go home. We stayed another night, and then headed out for our next campsite. In any case, we never had a problem using the M400, no matter the weather. And, the X-GK is still a wonderful stove for deep cold, and high altitude! I have all of that MSR Family of stoves, from the #9, up to the X-GK EX, and love them all!! You will need to learn to protect and maintain the o-rings that mate those stoves to their outboard fuel bottles.. It's easy to do, and once embraced, you will have few, if any, problems with those stoves. I know that Arch has used his X-GK stove in snow camps before, and if memory serves, it worked well for him. I hope this helps a bit. Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
I have snowmobiled in 6 to 10 miles before, camping in -3F/-20C temperatures and used my old MSR Whisperlite stove, my sole stove on the trip. Nowadays, I like to bring two stoves. Love the MSR stoves in cold temps, especially for melting snow for cooking, dog water, drinking. I have had kerosene/paraffin stoves out in those temps also, getting older now, the convenience of petrol is nice, even using gas(isobutane) in shoulder seasons now and then to save backpack weight and space when having to accommodate my dog. I don't handle the cold too much anymore, but still get out every month of the year, missing two months the last 7 years or so. Duane
The SVEA should work perfectly fine at those temperatures, well below freezing. It sounds to me like there may either be an issue with technique or, perhaps the filler cap gasket is getting on in age? Has that been replaced? There certainly are stoves better suited for winter use, but there is little doubt about anything more reliable than the Primus or Svea design. The main fault with these little brassers is fuel tank capacity, for that reason they aren't really suited to heavy or extended use. The plate burner types are also noisy, that gets tedious. If torching snowbanks into drinking water all day I'd use a Coleman, I don't think anything else comes close to BTU output, practically speaking, plus they are very quiet. Our overnight lows this Tuesday are forecast for -24° F., if you ask nicely I could be persuaded to perform an experiment with a 123 in the interests of science. Staying inside though, sounds much better!
I'm sure the 123 could be coaxed to work in colder conditions, thinking though that like many things, the right setup makes a big difference. I think I'll stick with stoves that I don't have to eyeball to fit parts to and try to keep my hands warm during the process. Have yet to stick my tongue to the fuel line on a MSR stove when wetting the end before inserting into the pump. Duane
I wasn’t suggesting the Svea wouldn’t work in the cold. Throughout the 1970s, when I was doing a lot of winter mountaineering, it was my only stove. On a few occasions, at least, I likely owe my survival (and that of my friends) to that stove and to my ability to start it in adverse conditions. I didn’t even get the X-GK because of that. I was planning a climbing trip to the Mexican volcanoes, and needed a stove that wasn’t dependent on white gas. My shakedown trip for Mexico was a winter ascent of San Gorgonio, an 11,500’ peak near LA. We set camp at about 10,000’, well below freezing, and with a wicked wind. The X-GK performed flawlessly. What got my attention was how much faster it would melt snow than the Svea. It was also nice not to have to [shut down, refill tank, restart] between pots of snow. Ironically, I was able to buy white gas in Mexico, from a ferreteria in a small town. They had bought it, in a gin bottle, from another climber. (Not being a fan of cheap gin, I had to sniff it twice to confirm it was white gas.) I find the Svea 123 a more satisfying stove to operate. The starting procedure is almost like a ritual, and I associate it with many good times. Almost any stove with a pump is a better choice than a self-pressurizing stove for very cold conditions. The latter type is dependent on the burner’s ability to transfer heat to the tank in order to maintain pressure. Even with a mini-pump, the Svea is just not as good in really cold conditions as a stove that’s designed with a pump. Just talking pumped stoves, the XGK is a very simple stove to maintain in the field. Even a pump rebuild is simple, especially compared to, say, a Soto Muka. The weak link on the XGK is the pump but, as with all MSR stoves, it’s more than simple to just screw a spare pump into every bottle of fuel your party carries. Yes, you have to lubricate the connector to avoid shredding the o-ring. Obviously, you shouldn’t do this with your tongue/lips in below 0 degrees F conditions. ….Arch
@Teaheater Regarding Carbon Felt - something like this: Carbon Fiber Auto Welding Blanket Torch Plumbers Pad Heat Sink Slag Felt 12'' | eBay Around 5-8 mm thick (if possible) and soft. I might have a spare of those cook sets ;-)
@Fettler Thanks for the offer, but I think I've done enough frozen-fingered stove testing for the both of us this week, and I wouldn't wish to subject you to it. I did get it going at -17 °C last night, so I have no reason to doubt your experience. We can both stay inside and warm for a bit. In any case, I'm sure operator error played a role; such as a lack of proper windscreen or heat reflector to keep the tank warm. I'll try to practice enough (in low-risk conditions) that I can be confident of operating the 123 even in deep winter, if only as a point of pride. There's also a Coleman I should practice with, an Enders I'm slowly fettling, and the MSR stoves which come so highly recommended that I may have to acquire one someday ... Acquiring more stoves isn't really a substitute for practising with the ones you have and knowing how to make the most of them, but is it's own kind of fun. @Harder D. Soerensen I've seen a very similar welding blanket at a local hardware store. I shall go pick one up next time I have a chance. And if you might have a spare Sigg cookset I might send you a PM ;-) Mange tak!
@Teaheater The 123 with the Sigg set is where it's at, ever and always. I could post many examples.....our favorite set-up.
I’ve used my Svea’s in Northeastern Minnesota’s version of winter,,, always did well, though they might need more than one preheat… Thought to take a stove out this passed weekend,,, setting a few rabbit snares, -10°F… Thought to boil up some bush tea whilst out… Tried my Coleman 533 and my 442,,, stoves that have never given an ounce of trouble… The 533 pumped up, and immediately started leaking around the fuel lever… The 442 refused to pump at all… Gets cold out in the shop in winter,,, and stays cold… Ended up taking along a Littlbug twig stove,,, twig stoves don’t leak fuel or refuse to pump up… Cold weather,,, minus bunches,,, seems to effect how mechanical pieces fit together,,, some things shrink more than others…
Absolively positutely was the weather for it… Thumb wood fires are simple to built, put out lots of heat, and will have a kettle at the boil in quite short order… Plus, a small contained fire is great for warming the hands… AND no mechanical parts to go wrong when you’d rather they didn’t…
Thanks to @Harder D. Soerensen I now have my very own Tourist set to play with! It's now too late in the season for cold-weather tests, but I shall at least have fun wind-testing it (found a few challenging wind-swept hilltops for stoving in the last few weeks of winter). This is gonna be fun.
