A solution to the MSR date stamp puzzle?

Hello all,
I have been “hovering” for a while, looking on from the land of Oz. Being an avid user of old tech purchased at a good price, as well as a camper/hiker, I have acquired a range of camping stoves, starting with a Coleman 533 (which as my only camping stove for many years) before recently sampling an Optimus Hiker 111 (spotted on ebay very poorly photographed, badly described and rather cheap), Optimus Ranger 99’s (2, because my son just had to have one) and some Trangias for scout use.
But in the back of my head has been a hankering for an MSR X series. Mostly because the MSR was the original separate fuel tank stove but also because when buying old it pays to buy something rugged and easily serviced.

While waiting for my recent purchase to arrive (recent flooding rains probably slowing the mail!) I went looking for more information, particularly around the age of the stove.
Based on comparison with many of the fine examples showing up on this site I guess early to mid 80’s and that it has lost its sparker along the way. But that led to the discovery of a vigorous discussion within CCS about the XGK timeline, esp the XGK II. That in turn revealed a mystery around MSR date stamps.
I propose a simple solution to the date stamp question, so simple that I hope no-one is too upset with me suggesting it.

Proposed simple solution to MSR date stamps: (timing of changes not exact)
1) Phase 1: Prior to REI takeover (1981) no date stamping
2) Phase 2: 1981 – 1986 ish: Full date in format MMDDYY, split MMD DYY
3) Phase 3: 1987-1988 (ish): MMYY, no MSR
4) Phase 4: 1990 -1995: MMY where Y is the last digit of the year (e.g. July 1991 would be 071)
a. NB: this is in some MSR instructions: see https://classiccampstoves.com/fusion/gallery/1604/1325363715-MSR_XGK_II_KIT003_opt.jpg This specifically references the pre-shaker to shaker date change, October 1994 (104) and gives examples of months just before and just after that change.
5) Phase 5: 1996 on: back to MMYY but preceded by “MSR” and with smaller stamps.
I haven’t seen examples of stamps from 1989 or from 1995 so change could have occurred in those years rather than 1990 and 1996.
This gives a simple progression of information from nothing to date to brand plus date. The date format is adapted along the way to fit the confined space on the small block.

Corollaries:
ALL 6 digit numbers are from the 1980’s
ALL 3 digit numbers are from the 1990’s
4 digit numbers may be (late) 80’s, (late) 90’s or after.
I have heard it stated that 3 digit numbers could be from the 1980’s OR 1990’s but logic dictates this cannot be so: do-one would plan a system where you couldn’t be sure of the correct manufacture date. Plus the early 1980’s stamps show “81” etc as the last 2 digits. Why swap between two incompatible systems?
Knowing about the 3 digit codes for later models, some CCS members report the final three digits of the early 80’s stamps as month (M) and year (YY) which cannot be, unless manufacturing was halted after September each year.

Examples from CCS, by thread and examples presented:
https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/23219
MSR 070 lummox states “1980” and Doc Mark says “after 1989.” Proposed system says July 1990.

https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/20666
041 781 SNOWGOOSE says “July 1981.” Proposed systems says April 1981 (Friday April 17, 1981, to be exact)

https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/20654
MSR 063 SNOWGOOSE says “June 1983.” Proposed system says June 1993.

https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/24009
MSR1296 yonadav says “December 1996.” Proposed system says December 1996.

https://classiccampstoves.com/posts/15810
094 MSR hikin_jim says “ ’94 … what does the ‘0’ stand for? Pesky MSR.” Proposed system says September 1994. The “0” is the first ½ of “09” for September.
Further (off topic) discussion of codes:
121 084 No guess on date. Proposed system says December 10 1984 (a Monday)
MSR 043 RonPH says “March 2004” Proposed system says April 1993.

https://classiccampstoves.com/posts/24289
MSR 0204
MSR 0203 (SNOWGOOSE examples) – February 2004 and February 2003 respectively.

https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/19881
MSR 101 SNOWGOOSE says “October 1981” System says October 1991

Doc chimes in with 4 stamps:
022 381 (System = Monday February 23, 1981)
161 181 (System = Thursday June 11, 1981)
112 884 (System = Wednesday November 28, 1984)
12 87 (Which I think we would all read as December 1987)

Using a three number code is illogical but they clearly did so, from 1990 through until no later than 1996. I think the three letter code was introduced to allow “MSR” to be stamped as well as the date.

I have quoted the day of the week which corresponds to the 6 digit codes as a check – I have not found one that would correspond to a Saturday or Sunday, nor have I found one that cannot be a simple date.

To reiterate:
6 digit codes should be read “MMDDYY”
4 digit codes should be read “MMYY”
3 digit codes “MMY” should be read as “MM” 199”Y”

The full sequence includes two time periods for 4 digit codes, the late ‘80s without “MSR” and the period from at least 1996 to the present using MSR XXXX and smaller (machine) stamps.
So what say you all? Are there any examples that prove this system cannot be correct?

Before we begin quoting provenance of stoves to prove date, what I am looking for is internal inconsistency. Is any MSR stove stamped with something that CANNOT be fitted into this system (e.g “MSR 134.”)?

 

Morning, Scrambler,

WOW!! Your first post is certainly a doozy!! You've done a good bit of work trying to figure out what has been a very hit and miss mess for too long. I've only had a chance to hit a few places in your hypothesis, but so far, you look to be very close to the truth of it. I'll go through each thing you suggest, and see if the rest fall into place, too. Nice job, and well done, especially for your first post!!

Interestingly, I've slowly been gathering data of another kind, since the last time I posted on this topic, and hope to complete my own timeline for MSR stoves soon. I'll post all information, photographs, and research data here on CCS, when it's all done and ready to share. Thanks, again, for undertaking this task, and I look forward to seeing how it all turns out. Your work, along with what I have to offer, should clear away a huge misconception on where some MSR stoves fall in the timeline of production. Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

Ummm, not bad for a first post ...

Welcome to the black hole, as once in, there's no return, but you are well past the event horizon!

Regards,

Rob

ps. I cannot help with the question as I do not possess an MSR.

 

Hi,

A great first post - so good to see that you have given this vexed subject a great deal of thought.

This will require some careful reading before one can give a response to your proposal.

Well done and I'm sure we all look forward to further posts from you.

Cheers,

Rob

 

Thanks, Scrambler, and welcome!

Now I have to dig out all my MSRs, and assign them proper dates.

Yonadav

 

Thank you all for your welcome.

I can't promise any more posts like that - the idea re the 6 digit codes struck like a bolt from the blue and I just went looking through the CCS archives for examples to place. Perhaps I should promise NOT to have any more posts like that!

My interests are eclectic - just ask my wife about the various types of junk that I manage to accumulate - and I can never aspire to the depths of knowledge or skill with stoves that I see on CCS. So unless any more bolts strike I will leave it to the experts ...

 

I think it is more complex than mere numbers...you also have to take account of the pump issued with the stove.

The stove in question above was supplied with a yellow pump - it can't be 1991 - by 1991 MSR had gone through several iterations of their pump.

I think Doc Mark is right when he says that we will probably never make sense of MRS numbering - we just have to look at all the evidence and make a best guess based on our knowledge and experience.

 

I appreciate you have a clear view re the timing of these stoves, Snowgoose. And in any practical matter I bow to your extensive experience. But I do believe based on a number of other features that the stove in question is an X-GK II (as opposed to the earlier X-GK)and would not have been sold with a yellow pump.

I haven't found dates online re pumps except that the grey/black pump was first issued in 1985. The pump may well date from 1981 or thereabouts, certainly not later than 1985.

I also collect and use Leica Thread Mount cameras and lenses. The age of lens attached to a camera has no value in dating the camera. I use 1950's lenses with my 1990's camera.

Given the poor reputation of later pumps it is not unreasonable to think that someone would keep their yellow pump in use even after a stove upgrade or the apparently common MSR "repair" by exchange.

And yes, I am aware that you date the X-GK II from 1981 on and from what I have read you don't believe in a separate X-GK model. I can only say that MSR seem to have a different view, as did gear reviewers of the early 1990's. MSR issued a service kit to cover "XGK, XGK II and XGK II shaker jet" models. "Backpacker" magazine in 1984 refer to three MSR models" XGK, Firefly and (new) Whisperlite. In June 1990 they reviewed the XGK II (http://books.google.com.au/books?id...#v=onepage&q=Mountain safety research&f=false - see footnote)

The numbers are either an understandable and simple date system or a hopeless hodge-podge with no system at all, indeed with different stamping systems used concurrently. My money is on the system being simple and logical. Everything else about the stove is.

 

Except that I have bought my MSR’s from British climbers who had the stove and pump from new.

I am aware of the service kits issued by MSR, I have reproduced photos of these and the instructions that came with them in the Reference section:

In the gallery, MSR XGK 11 NON SHAKER & XGK II SHAKER MAINTAINANCE KIT - photos of what was inside the kit and instructions incl this drawing:



https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/20233

See also:

https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/20232

https://classiccampstoves.com/posts/207829

https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/20230

Cheers,

Rob

 

I understand your reasoning, Snowgoose, I just think it relies too heavily on human recollection over contemporary evidence and straightforward method. And you think mine disregards the evidence of eyewitnesses

You mention climbers plural and MSRs plural. How many XGK IIs with yellow pumps do you have?

 

Here we go again.
Duane

 

My thoughts exactly Duane.
Doc and Rob reached a consensus, I hope we get one here quicker.

Ken in NC

 

Howdy, Guys,

Not to worry, Mates. In truth, research is what we do, and unless we work hard to seek the truth, we will not find it, period. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I will have some proof to offer of my thoughts on this, and hopefully, that will shed the proper light on the subject. Even then, we hold our horses, and remember that we're all friends and fellow Stovies!! Truth is what we seek, and not opinion. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

Ok, I didn't mean it nearly as negatively as it looked. I guess I was trying to say this had all been covered before.

I'll go back to sleep now.

Ken

 

Hi Guys.

It's probably a bit much for a stove website, but I think this is really a disagreement about what truth is, not about stove dates.

I am happy to agree to disagree, particularly as I have about as many posts to my name as Rob achieves, all good value, every day.

Pax, or whatever your local truce term is.

 

the original dating system proposed here would seem to also work on my recently purchased old whisperlite

 

bump
all,
Hello @Scrambler,
Excellent 1st post i only "got that" now . I have been referring to it for many years.
There was no follow up to erice just above. He presumed he got his date right and i presume we 3, you he & I agree he did.
To clarify, erice's date stamp format example is a match to your line (above):
3 digit codes “MMY” should be read as “MM” 199”Y”
---

Jay Tews JUST posted another like it Hoping to get a positive ID And age on this MSR stove .
Quick point that thread could be updated to "positive ID" that he has a Jan 1990 model XGKII (XGK2) which began early/mid '89.

His date stamp:
M 0
S 1
R 0
a Jan 1990 XGKII

fwiw (and why i post) this is the earliest use of this date stamp format that i am aware of.
NOTE: Anyone with earlier examples please do chime-in, thank you.
----

FWIW an example to back date just a smidge:
03
89
a Mar 1989 X-GK
-----

Open question:
Apr 89 (mod?) -to- Dec 89 (XGKII) uses what date format(s)???
["XGKII (XGK2) began early/mid '89"", source credit Andy Sorensen RIP]
tag @oddball

 

@OMC Thanks for the thanks :-)

Unlike MSR I have real trouble declaring a stove to be an "MSR II". Jay Tews' stove is an example. What made it an "XGK II" as far as I can see is the crossed wire stand. If he replaces this with the 4 bent wires of the X-GK, is it still an "XGK II"? What if it has neither? Do the accessories make the stove? From a maintenance point of view, it's the same as the previous model, and unlike the shaker jet version.

I had missed the date being so early. But logically there cannot be an earlier 3-number date. Per MSR themselves, these dates are MMY translated MM, 199Y. https://classiccampstoves.com/fusion/gallery/1604/1325363715-MSR_XGK_II_KIT003_opt.jpg

Unfortunately MSR sold the crossed wires as a separate accessory, as well as replacement swivelling Ls, so any stoves near the change could have incorrect legs. Finding a NIB original is the only incontrovertible proof.

 

How would they be 'incorrect'?

 

Not "incorrect" at the time! But looking as a user/collector it's a trivial difference. Is an X-GK from 1982 now an XGK-II if it has an updated pump and crossed wire stand? Of course not. But the branding difference is that simple. By 1990 the stove was an "X-GK II" with no feature other than what could be bought as an accessory. It's like declaring that your updated car model now has different paint. Is it a new model if the only difference is new paint? For marketing, yes. For maintenance/collecting, I don't think so.

If I find a June 1989 stove with crossed wires and no sparker, was it before or after the model change? I can't tell from the build. The changeover date is unknown. I prove nothing date-wise.

I personally have an undated stove of the X-GK style. From the stove itself it is somewhere 1981 to 1994 and should have a date stamp. I'm pretty confident it's from the early years (1981-1984ish) because of the three short (vs 2 long) legs it had. But what if it had come with all-new legs? It has the sparker hole blanked- this blanking screw came in the old service packs so I doubt it is an original XGK-II with old legs. But how to prove that?

Historical dating would require confidence that the mid-1989 stove was untouched by accessories, which unfortunately means NIB since the required accessories were sold separately at the time. A pre-XGK-II stove could have crossed legs and blanked sparker from 5 minutes after the sale.