@multi-cho I am sure you know them I added images just to add more information for future readers. We were talking about igniters so I completed the argument for the little information I have Thanks a lot for your inputs and contribution! As I said before, I am the one still learning here. Nicola
have read all of the above, some parts several times. Myself, I'm still not beyond 1915 AND worth noting fellow stovies incl. Bo & Ross strive to be accurate. In 2008 (much happened since) when the 1915 catalog posted, it is referred to as c 1915 / circa 1915. Year ranges and narrowing year ranges may be all we have to build from. For our hobby there are PLENTY of open questions, many questions if we were to get to within the nearest decade would be progress. Hard dates come along but may be few and far between. That said, every month we're gaining better understanding, bit by bit and on we go. OP: bubble font, consider as a detail to ID early Svea stoves. above, for very wide year range, we have any font resembling bubble font is pre-1930. above is also established different types of bubble font. with that, and No.8 as example, the font (*progression) on 1 pint tanks, differs from 2 pinters and others. *progression, early examples the bubble font is more obvious but this is not so obvious on later examples. Of the different bubble fonts, myself in OP, i was considering mostly the very obvious large type. I am only learning now/here that use of that largest type was limited to larger tanks. I could have said bubble lettering, balloon lettering. bubble font suffices. The largest type of bubble font on early Svea 2 pinter tanks... The ends (edges) of all the bubble-type letters and #s show only rounded ends. None have any squaring on the ends at all, on all the bubble type letters the ends are bulbous / rounded ends /fatter ends. Note multi-cho's No.9 as example: ALSO "Consider text/marking on top and sides of tank of course." On his No.9 the sides show >Svea multi-language and >**Cyrillic text. **side note, context, 1895 Russian Empire was largest in the world remaining dominant until events culminating in Bolshevik Revolution / WW1. Leading up to 1917 to add/include Cyrillic text to the tank, at the time, was applicable to most of Eurasia (my how times change). Moving on, there is > top text "The best stove in the world" around rizer, "Patent" x2: > Patent on top, > ***Patent on bottom and then there is > the " older star-burst style 'Sievert' " (intersteing that) [ later NRV fcators-in] ---------------------- *** New "SVEA" No.0 & 1 offered in 1904 source I wonder... all, @ArchMc @Christer Carlsson, Nyberg c 1904 and earlier, don't grab Victoria on my account BUT... [[count me among those that would like to see Victoria's bottom. An image may be on CCS, i've not see it ]] .. do you (or anyone) recall if "PATENT" is on Victoria's bottom? (is there anything on the bottom?). I ask as, rightfully so, here we are considering "patent" on bottom to be among the earliest examples (which maybe carried-over from Victoria). I doubt it as it is not included in gallery comments but figured I'd ask.
@OMC I add for synthesis also if redundant with previous messages: the two styles of “bubble font” (small tank / large tank) are seen from the very beginning until the new edition of Svea font is introduced (post 1924 Italian catalog). At this point, with the new font, we don’t have any difference between the small and the large tanks, so the Svea font style is uniformed through all the models. Bubble font small tank: Bubble font large tank: Later font, uninformed for all models: Nicola
Myself (from OP) I'm less confident/sure using bubble font term beyond those with rounded ends. In my view, only after your input, for me bubble font might never be term for 1 pinters. The font is similar fat, yes, but has squared-ends. Rounded / bulbous ends, this "maybe" a difference (as per OP) that helps define sequence, maybe narrows approx. year range ? It may be case, like many others, we do not "define" as category etc. but we find examples (not excluding others), the examples we find have these similarities. the examples we find indicate certain sequence, then maybe same examples indicate approx. wide year range, then maybe in future is we might narrow the approx. year range. I am back in c 1908 looking at this, so c 1908 to pre1930, still very wide year range. I do see and I'm thankful you've made more progress .
@OMC I have checked all the 1 pint and smaller (30-34-40-44-130) models, most of them are early models that after catalog of 1924 are not seen/produced anymore, so the same font has been used for their entire life. I don’t know if that font can be called “bubble” or not, but it represents the font style of the small tanks before the font update. For sure these 2 “bubble fonts” are found on the tanks that have the important and decorative PATENT word on the tank top. This font argument is more an observation of a graphic detail than a key factor for precise dating. Here an overlapping of old and new fonts on small tanks (compare especially the A). Up new, low old: Bubble small over Bubble big: I agree with you that the early font of bigger tanks is the real and more “chubby/bubbly/bubble” between the two. Nicola
@OMC I am not defining, all my observations are pure observations If I set a date range or a category is based only on the docs we have and on what I have observed, conscious that nothing could be definitive but only indicative. Most of the things I am observing are new for me but known for most of you, so thanks for underlining this when needed. Thanks, Nicola
"Most of the things I am observing are new for me but known for most of you..." not me (i have questions) and don't sell yourself short. I join many fellow stovies (close to 1000 views already) that are thankful that you are working through these details. I mean no disrespect to others, but in-general, "usually" interest is, self interest, re stove(s) in hand or thinking to buy. Relatively speaking, few readers/site visitors review catalogs. Fewer again participate in what you are enthusiastic engaging with here, gaining understanding of stove maker/model history and details indicative of dating for 100 years (not a niche or 2). Best case 1: we learn from chat/discussions, later as stove is posting to gallery reference section more details can be added. Best case 2: later question is asked re 1 stove in-hand. Stovies can find it helpful reference details we have confirmed here (Ross and God willing years from now, and I'm dead, : )).
@OMC You got it! Sure is the passion for stoves that is driving me through all these observations that are not limited to Svea stoves only. If I “sell myself short” is because some communication difficulties that I have with written English. As happened in some cases my debating could be misinterpreted as arrogant or teaching, but it’s sure is not like that. So I wish everyone understand that my intentions are only good. Nicola
Nicola, Do you have a vote for several "SVEA" models in gallery, that you guess, are among the oldest in the gallery (provide links)? @igh371 @multi-cho same question if you like. all, same question. My hope/focus being three legger 2 pinters... but I myself don't have answers. Hopefully y'all know how to link to examples (it got easier for PCs recently). Never any rush but FYI also, i myself have to run. I will follow up, might not be til tomorrow. carry on
Seems a rude and even presumptuous thing to ask for, but I guess the old girl can accept a request from a stovie. Looking closely, I’ve sometimes fancied I’ve seen coherent markings, but on closer examination they’ve always turned out to be scratches or surface imperfections. ….Arch
@OMC A list of the oldest Svea in our opinion… Well I always agree with @igh371 dating on the single posts, so I will make a short list that is more a grouping of the examples that should be the oldest ones. First of all the focus should be on models that appear on 1908 catalog 23, so: 0,1,10,11,8,9,2 Considering that the first two models released were 0 and 1 in 1904, I will reduce the focus on: 0,1,10,11 This additional models choice reduction let me think that the tubular tube roarer burners 800/801 were released a little before than the tubular tube silent burners 804/805. Is this a correct guess? By logic I think that evolved portable/collapsible models like 8 and 9 are a consequence of basic models, so they should have been produced a little later than 10,11. I would take in consideration only the examples with PATENT bottom stamping or WITHOUT any bottom stamping. On Victoria stoves we have the PATENT stamping on top of the tank (as usual on early 900 stoves like AETNA for example). The Victoria patent stamping: It clearly is very similar to Max Sievert Svea Patent bottom stamping: In 1904 first Svea models are released and the new outstanding graphics/decoration on tank top that we all admire is introduced. No more space for a simple patent stamping, the PATENT word is added as main part of the tank decoration. So, is in this moment that the Max Sievert Stockholm Patent bottom stamping is added to the bottom plate? Probably… In the gallery (based on the bottom photos availability) we have two examples that don’t have any bottom stamping: A no 0: Svea No.0 c.1908 And a no 11: Svea No.11 c.1908 variant. Do these two examples represent the transition between top tank PATENT stamping seen on Victoria stoves and bottom tank PATENT stamping seen on other early Svea models? To understand this I ask to Ian @igh371 to complete the photographic documentation with a photo of the bottom plate of these two important models: 1: Willander Svea No.1 1904-7 this is probably the oldest Svea in the gallery 2: Svea No.1A - and many questions... this is in my opinion pre 1908, as Ian says a precursor of model 10. If these two models have no bottom stamping we can think that the models 0 and 11 linked above are older than any other Svea model with PATENT bottom stamping. So for now I think we have enough information so I wait the missing photos of the two examples above to add more models to the list. @OMC so this is my 4 stoves selection, the 0 and 11 above will stay in this list if the 1A or at least the Willander Svea no 1 don’t have any bottom stamping as well. In case the Willander Svea no 1 has the PATENT bottom stamping I could think that the 0 and 11 without stamping could be maybe transition models in the probably very short timeframe between PATENT and MADE IN SWEDEN bottom stamping update. Nicola
Correction for the above post, I missed 4,5 here: First of all the focus should be on models that appear on 1908 catalog 23, so: 0,1,4,5,10,11,8,9,2 Nicola
@gieorgijewski your Zvedka doesn’t have any marking on bottom plate apart that J correct? I checked Zvedka on google translator and it translates from Slovenian… meaning WITNESS. Honestly I was expecting a translation from polish or from another of the bigger countries of the Eastern Europe. Possible that Svea had a contract with a Slovenian distributor so early? Did you find out the provenance? Thanks, Nicola
Thank you Nicola well done, I'm with ya, onward we go. Thanks Arch. Several members would know better than I, but seeing Victoria's bottom is a reminder a craftsman may have given that bottom a spin. Re "spun" bottom, it may be all Victoria's have a bottom piece made by spinning/cutting brass chunk vs stamped from brass sheet? "IF" .. IF i have all that right, it may be true none of the "spun" bottoms get stamped? Nyberg or otherwise. The spun bottom may be of no help re the earliest "SVEA" but another detail that factors-in is also shown above: the bottom seam.
@OMC Another thing I am observing are those numbers stamped on bottom plates. On the bottoms with the Patent bottom stamping numbers from 0 to 8 are found. On the bottoms with Made in Sweden bottom stamping both number and letters are found, I found L K P so from A to P we have many letters. I obviously have no clue about their meaning, but I keep taking track of them. Nicola
As so often this seems to be one of those questions where the answer ought to begin with 'it depends'. It depends whether you mean with the Svea name, or whether you would include other (earlier) Nyberg stoves. If we restrict the search to stoves with the Svea name, and only to those actually present in the gallery the earliest Svea stoves must be those handful bearing the Willanders name, but which have been scattered amongst a couple of different gallery sections. Erstwhile B.A.Hjorth salesman Andreas Willander was the first to attempt to sell Nyberg stoves on a volume basis in 1904 and he held the marketing contract with Nyberg until early 1908, after which Willander's role was taken over by Max Sievert. See: here, here, here, and here. The earliest offered was the No.1, in December 1904. advert in 'Varbergsposten' dated 8th Dec 1904. (There is, however, a still earlier incarnation of Nyberg's 'Svea' stove, his 'Victoria', which appeared briefly in a small number of adverts in 1897, but of which there is no currently known example. It seems that commercial success had to wait until some issues were resolved relating to the NRV system {c/f}. advert in 'Dagens Nyheter' dated 29th Jan 1897.) @Nicola Francesco Elia
@igh371 Also a photo of the bottom plate of this no 10 would be interesting. Willander Svea No.10 Thanks
Hi, sorry, not currently able to produce an actual photo of the tank base of either of my 2 Willander's Sveas, but suffice to say that there is no provenance mark on either.
Does anyone know the timing of Max sivert's transition to a corporation? My colleague's collection has a stove called "svea-komfur" stamped like Ian's svea-11. "nybergs Patent sundbyberg" and tanks "Max sivert Stockholm" is engraved. "sundbyberg" The name of the factory site purchased by the nybergs in 1891 would be correct. The catalog "23" we refer to was printed after svea became a joint stock company. The date of corporate conversion seems to be a very important point here.
