MSR Whisperlite Universal -- Pump Compatibility Problems

OK. Here's the deal.

Go here for photos and vids:
https://classiccampstoves.com/posts/198274

Now, as to the stoves. Holy smokes, Mike! Your post above is so loaded with suspicion and stuff that I'm unsure I really want to reply. (You're not still going on about that "grassy knoll" stuff in Dallas, too, are you?)

But, here's what I understand about the genesis.
The military capillary stove discussion is as follows from my recollection. The technology for the stove was developed by a fellow who wanted to see the idea turned into stoves for backpacking. MSR was part of that process, however, it came about that the technology could also be used for delivering pharmaceuticals. Once the venture capital money discovered the more lucrative use, they said drop the silly stove idea and go for the drug delivery. MSR managed to license the technology for use in stoves only. Later, the military worked with MSR to develop the military version of the stove. Several versions of the stove were produced in this phase and the stoves were passed about for testing within the military. Eventually, however, the military just bought a whole bunch of XGK's and dropped the pursuit of the capillary stove. MSR retains a tiny bare-bones mini-production line for producing the stove in both military and civilian versions. They may possibly revisit the idea in the future, but it is on hold for now since the current stove lines and products negate any need to pursue capillaries from a financial stance. Hope my explanation makes sense.

As to the stove. Drew said that it produces about 5500 btus, so not real powerful. The flames were rather gentle and certainly not the highly propelled flames of a bottle stove or even a Svea 123. Much more like an old Primus 70, I would say - soft and gentle. The civilian version has lots of seals which is an issue and one of those seals seemed to be leaking slightly when Drew was operating the stove and which he pointed out. He said that it had been sitting for a couple of years. The impression I got from his talking about the stoves is that they are fussier and not as durable and less user repairable than other offerings that MSR has currently. The implication I drew was that was the major reason they have not ever made it to consumer sales. But, that was just my assumption and may not fit facts.

Sorry about the video quality, but I was shooting video with a still camera. Ron was shooting over my shoulder with his dedicated video Flip (?) camera, so perhaps he has better video. The central yellow flame goes blue when a pot is placed on the stove.

The civilian one in the last section of photos on the webpage apparently has two orifices, one of which can be closed to provide a "simmer" of sorts. You can see in the photos a smaller flame which corresponds to the simmer setting. You can also just make out the itty bitty flame from the seal leak.

So there you go. I hope we aren't going to have a big tirade about the guv'mint wasting our taxpayer dollars, blah, blah, blah, now, please. That kind of stuff would make me really sorry I posted the stuff or even bothered to take pics and video in the first place. Sheesh.

From what I heard, the MSR boys did their very best to produce the stove and the military decided it wasn't durable or simple enough technology for the Joes to handle. Makes sense to me. A good run by MSR but a technology tackle before the goal line was reached, I reckon. 8)

Cheers,
Gary

 

Hi, Gary,

Thanks for shedding some light on the subject. That's the best information yet on what happened to the CFV stove. It's an interesting idea with a lot of promise, but in the end, it just wasn't quite up to snuff. Maybe someday it'll get dusted off and brought to market. In the mean time, I'm sure the technology will improve because of work on other CFV applications, such as pharmaceuticals. Perhaps that work will cross over back to stoves.

HJ

 

I "spoke" (via email) with a gentleman from MSR. He says that they (MSR) were aware of the issue with the new fuel block not fitting into older pumps and chose the design of the new fuel block deliberately so that the fuel line could only be inserted one way into the current (Duraseal) pump. Apparently there are people who have had difficulty figuring out which way to insert the fuel line into the pump in the past.

I'm a little surprised, but I'm not too worried about it. A couple of minutes with a file or grinder will have it sorted for those who are really worried about it.

HJ

 

OK, evidently my dry sense of humor doesn't carry over so well in print. Sorry for that. I bet you all think we really put a man on the moon too.(joke)

No tirade from me. It's a good effort with new technology that will pay dividends in the long term. It wouldn't make sense to release a stove like that even if it was ready for prime time now and have it compete with the Reactor.

Great reports, Gary and HJ! Thanks for the effort. Good info throughout.

I'm a bit disappointed, though not surprised, on the pump connector issue. The justification is laughable. That connection's been around for 40 years?!

On Flip cameras: Get them while you can. I have two and love em. Cisco, in a brilliant move, cancelled the best selling video camera in the world. Supposedly they feel smart phones will do to them what they did to the Palm Pilot.

Again, thanks everyone for the info, photos and video. I really enjoyed all of it. I'll work on the humor.

Mike

 

I just got a Whisperlite with the new duraseal pump. I was surprised, although I should not have been given who made it, that the pump it pretty poor. My Dragonfly pump has a sprung poppet in it that provides positive shut off when the pump is disconnected. Where as the red and black pump relies only on the regulator valve being turned off. The Dragonfly pump is therefore safer to leave pressurised when not hooked to the stove for transportation. I think this does matter, especially when you are packing smelly kero.

I have the PDF of the 2 pumps, from the MSR website, and think it is the cleaning wire that stops the Whisperlite pump from using this poppet system. As the Universal does not have a cleaning wire in the connection I think MSR should have used the Dragonfly pump with this new stove.

I can't work out how to up load the PDF, sorry.

As for the actual Whisperlite (int) it is great, simmers very sell, nice kero burn, really happy with it (other than the pump)!

Dan

 

So the Whisperlite pump will not work on the Dragonfly, but does the opposite also hold true?

 

Greetings, All,

The Dragonfly has always had it's own pump, and that pump ONLY works on the Dragonfly, and no other MSR stoves. Take note of the fuel line diameter, and the matching hole in the pump. You will see why the DF pump ONLY works with the DF. 8) Here are a few photos, to show why the DF has a proprietary pump, and why it won't work with any other stove, and vice versa:





I hope that helps understand all this. Try to use a small fuel line, and you will get leaks, and immediately a fire; try to use the DF fuel line on a regular pump and it won't fit..... if you try to force it, you will destroy the O-ring, and probably the pump. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. As to the pumps with the new WPL Universal stoves, I am wondering what Dan found that he didn't like, besides the different poppet that the DF pump uses? I have two of the Universals, and have found both them, and their pumps, to be outstanding!! Doesn't bother me one tiny whit that the pumps can't be used with other stoves. Hey, I have two Dragonfly stoves, too, and so I'm used to proprietary pumps with a few stoves! For what it's worth....

 

OK. they made the Dragonfly pump diffeerent to prevent interchanging the pumps but why? Does the Dragonfly pump do something the others don't or vice versa? There must be a reason to make a small line of manufactured parts different to what they already had.

 

Hi, Geeves,

They didn't make the pump and stove different "just because", for a very specific reason. Yes, look at what the Dragonfly can do, that NONE of the other MSR stoves can do: simmer very delicately, with no problems, and no simmering plate!! The DF is for folks that love to actually COOK, whilst the other stoves are really not set up to function the same as the DF. Because of the filters, and other things, the fuel line had to be larger on the DF and those of us who appreciate what it can offer have no problems with that, whatsoever. IF you don't need to actually cook and simmer then look elsewhere, as those things are the DF's forte. Hope that helps and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

I guess the DF needed to be bigger to fit the inline filter and the lack of a cleaning wire made the poppet in the DF pump possible

 

MSR must have learned their lesson from making the FireFly because it could 'simmer' but not nearly as well as the DragonFly and it had the standard pump. Also, the DragonFly can use Kerosene as well, so many special parts are needed to simmer and use other fuels. A bit more complicated to maintain than many other MSR stoves. As an aside, MSR also forgot how to design simmering stoves when they made the SimmerLite for some reason.


sam

 

What's wrong with a rolling simmer?
Problem nowdays is that those that like to cook don't know how to use liquid fuels and those that use liquid fuels only want to boil something. That's what the stove makers marketing gurus are saying anyway.
Too many people using gas or Trangias or coke tin stoves.
Reality is that when you consider purchase price as well as fuel, it's hard to argue with the gas stove unless you're going somewhere cold. There's a lot of gas cans between the purchase price of a gas and white gas stove.

 

I wonder what would happen if you ground down the needle on the dragonfly to fit the standard pumps.

The standard pumps are a fairly common component available at most outfitters for replacements, but that's not so for the dragonfly.

 

Greetings,

Welcome to CCS. In truth, getting an MSR DF pump is quite easy, and those pumps are very available. if you can't find one locally, for some reason, then contact MSR directly and order one. Easy-Peasy, done deal! 8) Why take a chance on mucking up a stove that works great, just to try and jury rig a pump? Not necessary, IMHO. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

MSR website states the standard fuel pump works with Universal as well as everything but DF.

https://www.rei.com/product/709004/msr-standard-fuel-pump

 

Here's the Dragonfly version. Same price.

https://www.rei.com/product/709005/msr-dragonfly-fuel-pump

SMiles