This is thought to be the first 1 pint stove that Primus made The legs were made by me so should not be used to verify legs on other stoves of this period. The funnel came with the outfit but any funnel from that period would be metal. The reasoning behind the date of its introduction is convoluted and based on a statement made by Thomas Holding, the founder of the Association of Cycle Campers. The statement is contradictory so I am trying to decide which parts are correct to pinpoint the date that the 230 stove was introduced. The Baby Primus was derived from what I believe to be the predecessor of this stove. The Baby Primus is first mentioned in the 1905-1906 Handbook so was definitely in existence then. There is a 1904 photo of Holding's bike and it shows a 2 pint stove tank fitted to the frame so the Baby Primus is unlikely to have existed then. A 1 pint stove does not measure 5" diameter. It measures 5.25" diameter. I suspect that Holding asked Svensons (Primus) for the 5" tanked stove but gave no other details of its design. Primus probably did not immediately respond with a stove because they were too busy making domestic stoves to meet the demand for those stoves. At some time later they probably realised that there was a demand for collapsible 1 pint stoves so simply reduced the size of their domestic stoves together with their normal features. Those included tubular feet and an airscrew that stuck sideways out of the filling tube. The tank was similar in diameter to that requested by Holding but not the same. Having produced a similar model to that requested they sent it to Holding. I doubt whether Holding designed the stove modifications. I think that he simply repeated the requests stated above and Primus came up with the designs that suited Holding. Having got the stove that he wanted he needed to get the pan made to suite the stove which would take a little while unless the pan maker had no other work to do. I estimate that from getting the "wrong" stove to getting his Baby Primus and the So Soon pans made probably took a year so it appears that the 230 stove was in existence by 1904. However not as shown in the photos above. I think that the previous version had the airscrew sticking out of the side of the filling tube. Holdings requests produced the tank lid on this 1911 230 stove and it was used for several other stoves other than the Baby Primus. It was also fitted to the first version of 96 stoves and probably other stoves with a similar sized filling tube. Holding claimed to have been experimenting (using) the stoves for 15 years in 1908. He also said he was slow to start using them. 1893 was 15 years before his statement but appears to have been the first year that Primus stoves were imported into the country which raises doubt as to the accuracy of his statements. The Baby Primus does not appear to have been given a model number but was sold by Holding in parallel with the 230s being sold elsewhere. Essentially the Bay Primus was a 230 tank with the bun feet underneath it and a pump cap instead of a pump knob. Holding fell out with the ACC and took his Baby Primuses with him so in 1910 the ACC was selling Primus 230 roarer 1 pint stoves and Primus 234 1 pint silent stoves together with Primus 215 2.25 pint roarer stoves and 216 2.25 Primus 2.25 pint silent stoves In 1915 they were selling 96s, 230s and 234s. They also sold separately a "Compact" Primus outfit tin which had oil and spirit cans, burner shield (windshield?,) box of repair parts, swabs and room for a 230 or 234 stove. In 1916 they were selling the 96s, 210s (late 230) and 234s. The "late 230" may be misleading in that the 210 may have had different feet to the 230 and the similarity in size might have prompted the "late 230" comment although it probably meant that the 230 had been dropped Regards Bryan
Hi, Bryan, This is outstanding information, my friend!! Thank you, very much, for sharing it. I recall seeing a SVEA stove in the museum in Fairbanks, AK, which was used for scaling Denali (Mt. McKinley) in 1910. Supposedly the first stove used on that mountain. Whilst that large SVEA was not actually designed for that sort of thing, me thinks, it obviously worked well for the Gents that used it on that climb. Thanks, again, for sharing this, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Mark
OLD THREAD RIP Bryan. It never ceases to amaze me how far Bryan advanced our understanding of multiple models at a time when a mere fraction of archival details were available. Details above he gleaned from direct experience of Thomas Holding cyclist, who also engaged w/Primus model development. Thomas had experimented w/prev. models and in c. 1904 he experimented / further developed from the No.230, his prototype "The Baby Primus", a 1st. MUCH has been learned since 2009 OP, I can add: > "by 1904" Bryan deduced perfectly: "..it appears that the 230 stove was in existence by 1904", elsewhere he suggests 1905, just amazing. Re his "by 1904": In 2015 we learn the 230 was offered in the 1905 Catalog , the year range the 230 was offered might be better defined in future but for now "c. 1904 -to- 1908" > c. 1904 -to- 1908 while 230 was offered, Thomas's Baby Primus prototype was openly in use. re "...it [230] had projecting legs. So I devised a second model and had the feet set right underneath" -------------------- NOTE re: Primus vs Optimus competition, specifically in this case re Optimus 00 : "I believe that Optimus copied the design features off Primus. ... The patent 00 was created somewhere between these dates but most probably very close to 1905." Bryan He had far fewer confirmed details at the time. Without disputing 1905 or revisiting it... consider again: 1904-08: [230] had projecting legs. Baby Primus prototype ...had the feet set right underneath" . It's safe to say c. 1905/06 Primus AND Optimus were BOTH developing for production what became the 210 and the 00 (00 tank w/rounded tank shoulder, rounded feet). BOTH developed from the 230 / Baby Primus prototype features, BOTH (1st versions) with "...the feet set right underneath". ------------------------ 1908 - 1910, at some point, Primus replaces their 230 with the 1st version 210. 210 pre-1911 is confirmed btw. ---------------------------------- Bryan did not have benefit of voluminous details that have emerged since his 2009 OP. I feel his comment has withstood a test of time/scrutiny (from what is known to-date): The 00 is a result of Optimus copying the Primus features of the 230 (and likely imo, copying the Baby Primus prototype). A finer point, this ^^^ however, does not answer (imo) an open question: Which was offered 1st (& what year, we are now soooo close) the 00 or the 210? . From what is known today, a case might be made to trend either way. In future (sooner or years from now) fellow stovies will answer this or at very least more details will emerge. ----------------------end "Standing on the shoulders of giants", all of the above is a credit notably to Bryan (2009 contribution nothing short of amazing, RIP) , Trevor, @Matthew92, @Christer Carlsson and @Spiritburner. Thank you
I miss Bryan's visits. He came around a few times to go through the literature I have on file armed with copious notes & leaving with even more. Sometimes I played librarian finding him info I thought might help other times leaving him in the stove loft to do his research. Tents, stoves, outdoor gear (he made a lot of outdoor clothes himself) - he was a font of knowledge.
bump (4 yrs later) as mentioned above credit is due Bryan and those before us. re the mod No.230, from above, i stand by: "the year range the 230 was offered might be better defined in future but for now "c. 1904 -to- 1908" and "1908 - 1910, at some point, Primus replaces their 230 with the 1st version 210. 210 pre-1911 is confirmed btw." Update: re "year range might be better defined in future", granted it's 3rd party BUT noteworthy is this, just posted, 1912 catalog offering a No.230. 1912 J Buck of London Catalogue (Primus Stoves & Various Blowlamps) and now it too is part of the discussion. credit @Rangie. thank you
@OMC fantastic bump to an already interesting thread. has the pre-1911 210 been confirmed in a catalog on our website?
Another add-on so many years later, but illuminating to compare Bryan's elucidation of what Holding's 'Baby Primus' must have been with the one actual example which has surfaced in the years since: Holding's No.230 bun foot 'Baby Primus' (c.1908) | Classic Camp Stoves @OMC @Lighthouse
@Lighthouse your "OMC...pre-1911 210 been confirmed in a catalog on our website?" "i stand by" yes. i strive to be accurate, reliable. you are asking that i reveal our little secret in 2017 (yours, mine & a few), aw geez. ok, cat's out of the bag Catch of the day, early Primus (now everyone wants one lol) now hush y'all 8,850 views
ah yes, apologies. i completely forgot I knew... for years my 1914 210 was the earliest 210 on record. i initially thought that 1912 was indeed the first year for the 210 based off this now marked 1914 catalog. it was first thought it was from 1912. as far as the earliest reference to the 210 in catalogs is concerned, 1913 at the moment, is the earliest reference. regarding the pre-1911 210 and it's date-stamp or rather lack thereof, i'd like to discuss the process of date-stamping. are we certain the letter marking was stamped after the main bottom stamp was done? could a primus co-worker have forgotten to apply the date stamp? @OMC
