MSR Dragonfly, dated October 1998

Good afternoon from Indonesia, John @presscall and Mark @snwcmpr,

My apology for not answering at yesterday, I was occupied with other activities for a whole day. Got 1 preschooler and a baby that keeps me busy on the weekend, so the mother can have her relax time

I liked the idea, sir, I also agree that 2 spares are sufficient enough.

Yes, I wanted this stove to work for decades. I'm planning to try on the leather pump cup from Primus later after I buy it, or if it not fit, I might end up making one myself.

That's very kind of you sir, I don't want to troublesome you. Your answer has been a handful of insight into my question. I think 2 spares will be enough for now.


I did try the BRS pump cup, but it was too small compare to MSR DF's pump cup.

Yes of course! I would post it in another thread. Thank you sir!

Below is a past hiking trip, 4 days 3 nights, to Mountain Ciremain. We arrived on the peak at 05:00 in the morning to see the sun rising, and it's always beautiful. Not long after that, we're all starving and also wanted some hot drinks, but none of our stoves were working properly. The Trangias took 30-40 minutes to slow boiling half litre of water. All gas canister stoves were losing pressure and was useless at that moment.
This experience is the reason why I turned to MSR Dragonfly, because of its ability to burn a various of liquid fuels with pressure, and its precision flame control to simmer.

Below is the picture of us starved and confused, while waiting for the Trangias to boil water. We eventually gave up, and ate some cold snacks instead.



There's a deep,steep, cliff behind us. The summit heights 3078 masl (10098 feet altitude).



An active of hot and poisonous fumes crater on our left, and the deep steep cliff on our right. This volcano mountain is still active. It was a trip you would've want to try



1 more question,
I still can't find any proof that someone have successfully burns alcohol with MSR Dragonfly.
I know that some Youtubers have successfully burns alcohol with MSR Whisperlite and Omnilite/Omnifuel. I've also drilled an Omnilite jet hole to 1mm to be able to burn alcohol. I prefer 96% Pure Grain Alcohol as fuel. To store alcohol, I will use Primus fuel bottle which claimed to have its inside lacquered. And maybe replace the current O-ring with the type that can withstand alcohol.

With the present jets, I couldn't successfully use alcohol as fuel on MSR Dragonfly. I will try to drill a jet, that provided in the incoming Expedition Kit for MSR DF, to 1 mm, and see if it can burn alcohol as fuel with MSR DF.

Have you, or anyone you know, tried to burn alcohol with MSR Dragonfly with some modification?


(My apology for spamming your thread sir @presscall )

 

No problem at all. Those photos of you guys on the mountain are great. Sorry you’d no hot food/drink.

@Doc Mark will have a better idea than I have on the alcohol burning issue. Is the attraction that it’s easier to buy than other fuels? Your stove will develop a drink problem - meaning it’ll be thirstier!

 

MSR stoves were never designed to use alcohol.
The MSR fuel bottles cannot withstand the alcohol in the bottle without being damaged.
Primus and Optimus bottles, if I recall, can hold alcohol without damage.

Can you alter the MSR stove to burn alcohol? Probably.

 

... or @snwcmpr

Mount Cereme, Java, Indonesia.

 

Great pix!

 

@Iming Muslimin , @presscall , @snwcmpr ,

So many interesting questions! As to burning alcohol in the DF, I have never tried it, and as I'm VERY happy with the DF's performance with Coleman Fuel, or kerosene. I see no need to try alcohol, one main reason is that I have plenty of good alcohol stoves, and if I wanted to burn that fuel, I'd take one of those on my trip. Another is what Ken brought up: MSR fuel bottles are not rated to hold up with Meths in them. So, as you can see, getting a DF to work well with alcohol is very probably more trouble than it's worth. I strongly believe in using the fuels that the stoves were designed to burn well. The DF is not supposed to burn alcohol, and that's reason enough not to try it, in my opinion.

Iming Muslimin, thank you for sharing your photos of a past trip! Lovely images, and looks like a wonderful adventure! I very much look forward to seeing how your upcoming trip turns out, too!! Thanks, again, for sharing, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

Good morning from Indonesia sir, @presscall , @snwcmpr , @Doc Mark , @Ed Winskill ,


Pardon me for having a miss to greet you @Doc Mark yesterday. It's maybe my eyes.

Ahaha yes, a drinking problem! I've tested Omnilite with PGA fuel, it took 6-7 minutes to rolling boil a litre of water. It took a slightly close time to my Capillary Hoop Alcohol Stove.
With MSR Dragonfly, burning Gasoline/Petrol 88-octane took 4 minute to rolling boil a litre of water. With White Gas, it took 3-3.5 minutes to rolling boil a litre of water. It was tested at indoor, with 28-29'Celsius, the same place at around 500 meters altitude.

Fuel price per litre in IDR in Indonesian online marketplace:

1. Gasoline/Petrol 88-Octane IDR6.5/L
   
2. PGA-96% IDR71/L
3. White Gas IDR144/L
4. PGA-98% IDR197/L

The desire to use PGA as fuel is because it's theoretically less toxic than white gas. Although, it's still generate some invisible fume that sore to the eyes when burn in a can stove. But it's not an issue if burn in Trangia 25/27.

Just a little reference, heat output comparison per fuel:

• Methanol, or methyl alcohol, contains just over 10000 BTU of heat per pound.
• Ethanol, or ethyl alcohol, contains approximately 12500 BTU of heat per pound.
• White gas contains approximately 20000 BTU per pound.
• Butane contains just over 21000 BTU per pound.
• Propane contains approximately 21500 BTU per pound.

But I haven't found the heat output for pure grain alcohol-95~98%. I also haven't had a knowledge of how to measure BTU.

Yes indeed! Prettier landscape in real life! Thank you!

Yes sir, I also think the lacquered Primus fuel bottle will be a better option to hold alcohol. I will use the Primus fuel bottle combine with MSR DF stove and the BRS pump.
I might require to buy another MSR Dragonfly as a backup that planned to never use alcohol as fuel, in case the present MSR DF I have now will be broken somehow after years of experiments burning PGA.

The seller/producer who sells the PGA claimed that it is a food grade alcohol and safe to consume as it doesn't contain methane.



Thank you all for all the kind words. I also hope you're all have a wonderful adventure ahead.

 

Hi @Iming Muslimin - I'm usually a heavy lurker around here and this is my first post (I'm not much of a collector - more of a neurotic user!) and I can't help with your DF questions but I would just like to point out that those alcohol Trangias can work fine at that altitude - they just need a little help.

The main problem is the low temperature leading to insufficient vapor pressure from / evaporation of the alcohol - if you can get the burner lit, the evaporation of the alcohol keeping the flame alight is another reason for the fuel to stay cold - the weak flame is insufficient to warm up the alcohol sufficiently to overcome this extra cooling effect. Another solution is needed to warm up the fuel sufficiently to yield a strong flame which will in turn then produce enough heat to keep the fuel warm enough to maintain that flame - a virtuous circle, once you get it going.

One option is to just wait half an hour or more for the stove to start getting enough heat into it - if you're lucky - meaning the second pot might boil in a reasonable time (this is commonly noticed with Trangias - the second pot always boils much faster than the first for this reason).

Another option is to keep the sealed burner, filled to the mark with its alcohol fuel, inside a jacket pocket using body heat to warm it up, prior to attempting to light it. This same technique can be used on those gas canister stoves by the way, if a method can be found for keeping the canisters warm once their stoves are alight.

An even better option is to place a heating source under the burner and / or some insulation from the cold ground, if using on snow. Trangia sell a cold weather attachment, which is essentially a priming cup and pad to put under the burner with some alcohol in it, so as to warm up the burner fast. Other options include a tealight candle, a bit of an ESBIT tablet or a twig / piecen of cotton wool etc dipped in some alcohol and placed on a fire resistant surface under the burner (of course). Or just hold a BIC lighter under the burner for a bit that you have kept warm in a jacket pocket...

These methods should get your Trangias up to full noise faster than normal and the radiant heat from the strong flame will keep them there. BTW, if used judiciously, they also speed up the Trangia's first boil in normal use but it's easy to go too far with this in hot weather so be careful!

By the way, all stoves lose performance at altitude because there is less oxygen around and fewer air molecules to help transfer heat to the pot. Alcohol stoves actually have an advantage here (if you can correct the temperature / vapor pressure problem as above) because a lot of the oxygen is already in the fuel itself (chemical formula C2H5OH includes oxygen inside the fuel). This is why alcohols can burn cleanly in open air without having to worry about efficient fuel / air mixing as required by pure hydrocarbons (ie fuels that only contain Carbon and Hydrogen but no Oxygen). It is also why alcohol has lower energy density but this is somewhat overcome by the ability to use light containers (compared to gas canisters) and the avoided need to use pumps and complex burners with spares etc (compared to liquid multifuel stoves).

All the threads on this forum about fettling, pump washers and pricking etc etc have only convinced me even more that it's still really hard to beat a Trangia for overall utility. You just have to konw how to get the best out of them.

I hope this helps!

Alcoholic

 

Good advice indeed.

 

Yes, I remember having to wait for a half-liter of water to be boiled for 30-40 minutes.
I have several alcohol stoves in mind to discuss: CHS, copper coil alcohol stove, all with Trangia. Because I think, the Trangia windshield design is robust. I own a Trangia 27. But now am moving to Trangia 25. Now I would want to continue this in a Trangia thread

 

Morning, All, @presscall @Iming Muslimin ,

Recently, I tried to order an MSR Dragonfly Expedition kit, only to have the order cancelled by the eBay seller. He told me my address was not good, even though I assured him that it was! Oh, well....

So, I went online to REI, and found they had those items in stock. I ordered an Expedition kit for the DF, and also for the X-GK ED, whilst I was at it. Both arrived here, safe and sound, in only a few days! So, an FYI, for those seeking such kits, REI can supply them, and membership is well worth the minimal cost to join up. Take care, and God Bless!

Doc

 

After REI took a position against the 2nd amendment .. I no longer need their services. Almost 2 years now.

But, that is just me.

 

Ken,

I never heard about that! I'll have to check into it. If true, then we're done with REI!! Thanks for the head's up!

Mark

 

Update: REI statement on relationship with Vista Outdoor

 

Good morning ALL,

I ordered an Expedition Kit for MSR Dragonfly on 9 October 2020 from Amazon Japan, and it just arrived today. It was processed 5 days in custom clearance in Jakarta, which was reallllyyy slow. The courier was DHL, but they hand it over to a local courier agent in my town, whose, not so smooth with coordination, asked to pick the package at their house because it was raining (drizzle rain). Had to complain to DHL to make them deliver it to my address. Hmm...what a week.

I will not bring the plastic case while backpacking since it might melt if I accidentally store it in the same pouch with the stove which is still hot. And I will not bring the maintenance parts for the MSR DF fuel-pump, since I'm now using the BRS fuel-pump which mostly metals and have less moving parts.



The first thing I did was changing the DG jet. Unscrewing it was really hard. I remember to screw it a little loose so I can unscrew it easily. But I think because the stove was lit several times, the screws might be tighter than before.
I replace the DG jet because the flame was spreading dominantly to 1 side only, to the left side of the knob, rather than to spread evenly.



The modified LPG hose was 3 layers, and I added a smaller silicone hose that encapsulates both the MSR Dragonfly connector and the braided hose connector.



I burn LPG/propane/butane using the DG jet, and with the modified hose + Lindal connector attach. It burns a blue flame beautifully.



It connects to the BRS fuel-pump perfectly. Burns blue flame. I added 10-20% of anhydrous alcohol branded by Merck to the gasoline fuel. With hope to add more oxygen to the burning fuel.



This is why I liked the BRS fuel-pump. Mostly metals, fewer moving parts, easily unscrew everything to service, cheaper parts. A BRS pump-valve/pump-cup only costs IDR20 (USD1.36). I haven't found any BRS fuel-pump service kit, but I thought I might use some parts from the MSR DF Expediton Kit.



With this setup, MSR Dragonfly still simmers wonderfully. And still, roar powerfully at maximum flame (consuming more fuel quicker).

1 more component that I haven't buy is the Dragontamer from Berniedawg on Shapeways.com. I decided that Dragontamer will benefit me more.

Saw some not-so-good reviews about the Quietstove #107.
And this silent cap even have better reviews than the Quietstove #107: https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/gp/pr...ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A39LNCNQSB15BL&psc=1


Each of those stove silencers for MSR DF costs almost the same as the Dragontamer, around 20-30% cheaper than the Dragontamer. I'm still considering just go ahead with the Dragontamer.

 

If anyone curious to know my issue with MSR Dragonfly, which was not spreading the flamce evenly, you can see the video I upload in here:


And after changing the DG jet with the one from the MSR Dragonly Expedition Kit, the issue was resolved! Anyone can watch how it runs now, here:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...door-brand-due-to-its-weapons-sales-nra-ties/

 

@BradB , @snwcmpr ,

Thanks, guys. I did some looking around, myself, online this morning, and sadly, it does appear that REI had consumed the Kool-Aid, and had fallen into the anti-gun, anti-2A quagmire. I'm sending off a letter to REI, and giving them my thoughts on their misguided stance! If the snowflakes ever get control of the USA, and they well COULD, then life, as we know it, is over, and more things that have helped make this Country great, will be squashed, until we're just a shadow of our former selves. God Help us All!

Doc

 

Excellent!

 

@presscall , John,

Sorry to have veered off course for your thread. Please accept my apology for having done so!! Take care, and God Bless!

Doc