Having just read the thread on the Coleman pumps and NRV ball check valve has demystified that aspect of the stove. I've always wondered why the Optimus pump didn't adapt this in later model (I would assume they would have been under patent protection for a while). The Coleman pumps always look cheap from the outside however pump that "Knight48" created is in keeping with the sturdy brass look with the superior functioning Coleman pump. My question to you guys is the NRV subject to failure if the pip is in good shape and fairly new (what is that 5 years?) and the spring in working condition? I can argue that the SRV, which uses the same design principal, is also subject to failure in the same way. When the SRV fails you get hot gas vapour and a spectacular blow torch from the cap. With a NRV failure I guess you get hos liquid petrol escaping but doesn't the seal / leather impede the fuel flow under these conditions? One "simple" modification would be to fit an 0-ring (or other seal) and have screw the top to the pump base creating a secondary seal and locking the pump at the same time.
primus 77 had a screw down pump in the 30s but the design doesnt extend to venting above the fuel level. The question does have to be asked if there is any knowledge of a fireball happening. I have seen a discus vent kero through the pump due to nrv failure and if running a petrol the consequences are high but on a 111 the pump is so much closer to the flame that a catastrophe would appear at least to be certain.
I agree, failure on a 111 would result in either a fire ball or a flame thrower. A screw down pump, with proper seals, would all but eliminate the potential problem. If you could stop the effects of the failure would venting up top really be necessary?
Hi, here is link to an old thread: https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/13900 Best Regards, Kerophile.
Greetings, All, As I have written before, I've used 111B stoves for 30 years, with very, very few problems. BUT, as I've also written before, I am very careful to do maintenance on my 111B stoves on a regular basis. The question was asked, if five years was OK for using a 111B without maintenance. In my opinion, NO!! In fact, if I were using my 111B stoves fairly often, I would check them every year, or at the very least every other year!!! I've been shocked to find NRV pips as hard as rock in 111B stoves I'd just done a few years back. So, better not to take a chance, and check those types of stoves often. As for failure, I've had exactly one SRV leak a bit. No fireball, not explosion, just a small candle-like flame at the opening of the SRV housing. A quick rebuild saw the problem fixed. As for NRV's I've had several of them clue me in that I was behind in my maintenance! If you see your pump rod slowly rising, for no apparent reason, it's past time to change out your NRV pip!!! Again, no fireball, and no explosion. Just a gentle clue, and it's a wife Stovie that pays close attention to such clues, most especially if using a stove like a 111B, or 111T on Coleman fuel. My opinions, but I hope they are of value to the questioner. Take care, be safe, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
Since this discussion has morphed into the various aspects of the Coleman style NRV vs the Optimus style SRV (pip style) system, I'd like to add this tidbit. The Coleman Solus was produced in a variety of styles, including both the Coleman Style NRV and the Optimus (pip) style SRV. I've been trying to gather information on when this happened and on what models but haven't got enough data to form any concrete conclusions. Stan
Hi, Stan, My own US-made Solus, with the lions feet, was made with the regular kero-type, NRV, and not the Coleman version, if that helps you. I don't know, exactly, when my Solus was made, but can look around for you, if that would help you. Good luck on your efforts, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
My Canadian Coleman 3-legger kero burner has all the Coleman pump safety features. It is not labeled Solus. On the other topic, I'd disagree with the idea that locking the pump on a 111B (or M1942 or M1950) would provide much safety margin. It may even hide a problem that is otherwise revealed by the self-rising pump when the NRV starts to leak.
Hey, Itchy, I agree, 100%, and have been saved from major problems, several times, by the slowly rising rod!! Well said, and absolutely correct. God Bless! Mark
I read that old thread, wow what an eye opener! Until I caught the stovie sickness from an Optimus 8R, I had only ever used modern Coleman white gas stoves and lanterns, they all worked well and never and issues except for self-induced flareups from switching too early. I guess I've grown comfortable (perhaps too comfortable) with Coleman fuel and had assumed that Optimus must have designed something bullet proof with the 111B. :o What does the new green meanies use in those pumps? Did the pumps get updated or are they still a carry over from the 111s? The tank looks like a 111 tank except for some insane reason someone painted it green I guess I'll need to thin out my 111B herd and try and find some real 111 to use in their place. How about the mini-pump conversions? Are the caps with that SRV/NVR combo an issue as well? At least their NRVs don't sit in the fuel.
Doc, my Solus is Canadian made, fairly early evidently and has the Coleman style NRV/CV (check valve) on it. Basic feet, roarer, discus shaped tank, a model 318. The models 516, 518 and 518B also have the Coleman NRV/CV as well as the Australian models 531E and 532 E. Not sure of the American lions paw ones, but if yours is a Euro style (pip) nrv then that helps, I'll record it with the rest. Stan
Chris, I don't think you need to abandon the 111B; as long as you are aware of its issues. And, running the 111 or 111T on Coleman fuel is no different in terms of safety. In North America, Coleman fuel is widely available, burns clean, and is easy to light (too easy perhaps). With the necessary parts so readily available through the Fettle Box (thanks to some great folks here) there is no reason not to keep the 111B in tip-top working shape. It is not the only stove designed to run on white gas that uses this technology. As far as I know, the NRV in the newer Hiker+ is the same, as is the NRV in many fuel-bottle-fed stoves (the later MSR pumps being a notable exception).
"itchy" thanks, I guess I was going to the 111/111C/111T in order to burn kero and get away from white gas on stoves with this technonogy. Although as I think about it, heated pressurized kero is volatile enough that it probably wouldn't make a difference, it too would become a fire ball. In any case, a fire ball is still better than a "BLEVE" (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion) that you could get with propane and other canister stoves. I guess the thing is to inspect the NVR and SRV pips before leaving and replace any seals that are starting to show some wear/age.
If we are just talking about the pump issue, any kerosene that is leaking should be low pressure and not too warm. It should not ignite unless it gets almost directly under the burner and is heated, or an atomized spray is somehow generated. Coleman fuel or gasoline of course is a different story.
Hi Chris. I agree with the itchy's view. If you become knowledgeable about classic stoves and are able and willing to do your own regular maintenance, there is absolutely no reason to abandon your Op.111B stoves. Just look after them and watch for any early- warning signs of a failing NRV or SRV. You can then take corrective action and avoid any problems. Best Regards, Kerophile.
Thank you itchy and kerophile, I'm trying to become knowledgeable about classic stoves which is why I am asking all these questions on how things are working when I don't understand. itchy said: I don't understand the difference as explained. If the kerosene is leaking at low pressure and/or low temperature then so is the Coleman fuel. In that case the Coleman fuel is just as unlikely to ignite as the kerosene [see note] and if it did ignite the flame would be small, easily extinguished and shutting off the stove is thus possible without severe injury. Unless the Coleman fuel has been leaking long enough that there is enough fuel pooling so that the concentration of gas vapor is within the ignition range it won't ignite either (too lean). In a catastrophic failure where the pressure is high, fuel will spray all over and will ignite when it hits the open flame. In this case both the kerosene and the Coleman fuel, as well as diesel and jet fuel (which is kerosene) will all ignite. I may not know the way these stoves fail, but as a fire fighter I do know a little bit about fire and the ignition of refined fuels. You can drop a match in a bucket of kerosene and it will go out, put a torch to the bucket and it will ignite. So how do these NRV and SRVs fail? Is it slowly or can you get a catastrophic failure? Does the cap and SRV fail differently from the NRV? I'm sorry to harp on this but I would like to know the details so I know how to react when it happens without having to graduate from the school of hard knocks. Thanks everyone. [note] Yes Coleman fuel has a higher vapor pressure for the same temperature, but within the warm temperature range, not hot enough to burn skin, the difference isn't important compared to the other parameters.
HI, Chris, The answer which is eluding you, and the reason that kerosene is far safer than Coleman fuel, especially when used in a 111 type stove is this: Kerosene has a flashpoint of 110°F, which means that you have to heat the burner, and consequently the kerosene, to 110°F, or it will not light!! Hence, the burning of Meths in the spirit cup, which heats the burner, and the fuel, and helps to vaporize it, so it will light. Coleman fuel, on the other hand has a flashpoint of -40°F!! yes, that's right, I said 40°F BELOW ZERO!!! That means that Coleman fuel will create a huge fireball, or pressure problem if the NRV leaks, whilst the kerosene, which is just pushing raw fuel up the pump tube housing, will not. You can stick a match right into kerosene, and it will just put out the match, unless you use a wick of some sort. DO NOT TRY THIS WITH COLEMAN FUEL, as you will be VERY, VERY SORRY THAT YOU DID!!!! Does that help you some? The flashpoint of the fuel makes all the difference in the world, when it comes to leaking fuel, and lingering flames!! I hope you now understand why kerosene is far safer in the old technology of the NRV pip, than is Coleman Fuel. However, if the answer still perplexes you, please give me a shout, and I'll give 'er another go! Take care, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
Easy test put a tablespoon of kero in a small bowl and light it with a match. You cant unless you have a wick. In fact if you put the match in the kero in such a way that the falme is above the kero it will act as a wick creating a nice little table lamp. Try this with coleman fuel or any gasoline and it will light before the match reaches the liquid and burn till its all gone. Thats basically the way I used to demonstrate fuel safety when I was a Scout leader but I also included a little bit on why you dont use water on fuel fires but thats another story
Hi, Chris, You are most welcome, and I'm glad you got my meaning. One other thing to remember, is that kerosene vapor will not light, whilst the vapor from Coleman Fuel is highly combustible! I'll share a "mistake" I made back when I got my first 111B stoves. I'd found the pair of the at "that same old swap meet", and got them each for $20. Didn't know about NRV's or anything else about such stoves, at that time. So, we took them camping, and hey, they both fired up, nicely!! Blissful in my ignorance, when one of them ran out of fuel, I opened the fuel cap on the empty stove, and went to get my can of CF to refill it. All of a sudden, there was a huge WHHOOOMMMMP, as the vapor from the empty stove was ignited by the flames of the 111B that was still blazing away next to it!!!! By the Grace of God, neither Sweet Bride, nor I were hurt, but it was a very close call!! Now, I never refill a stove right next to another one that's burning. I learned a valuable lesson that night, and am happy to pass it along to you. You can't be too safe, when it comes to fuels, flames, and pressure appliances!! Talk to you later, and God Bless! Every Good Wish, Doc
