Another example of mine made in Austria, the bottom stamping letter/number doesn’t suggest year: @gieorgijewski on my steel 1F we have a bottom stamping that could be date related if compared with the ones above: For me is very plausible that this steel model with lion feet as visible on 1934 catalog is dated 1938. All the above models share the same logo. Now the problem is the Ian’s 17, with older logo but Made in Germany Nicola
@gieorgijewski oh ok, on Ian 17 we have an even later logo… see the differences: 1934 catalog and older models: Knee model and all my posted above: Ian 17 made in Germany Nicola
Nicola - do not care (for now/ do not "lost time") on Ian's example - it's very special... explanation could be simply... but not in that topic... it is only "kinds of proof" - how time stamping could migrate on time line...
@gieorgijewski Oh I think it’s simple, as Radler said on Phoebus discussion and Ian reported on his Phoebus 0 Made in Germany from 1939/1940, the 17 logo is a post 1945 logo… so in 1945 war ended, logo changed and probably still some made in Germany models were released. Nicola
Thank you very much for the substantive discussion. I didn't think I was going to make such a fuss. Sorry for spelling mistakes Kind regards. Stanislaus. .
Just to be more correct, this should be dated only as pre 1938, the brochure logo I took as reference is not a realistic reference, so the possible dating range would be at the moment pre 1938. I apologize for the confusion. Nicola
I'd suggest that this is much earlier: the lack of a reinforced stepped joint at the bottom of the burner riser and the Micky Mouse filler cap are features of earlier stoves. So, before 1938, I'd say, P
@abbahco1 Hi Peter, thanks for your hint. So you would put the stoves showcased here in this order: earlier my Phoebus 1 with Mickey Mouse filler cap, then my other Phoebus 1 without reinforced riser joint, then, as later ones, Knee Phoebus 1 and my 1F steel. We agree that clearly are all from 1938 and before. Do you think that NOT reinforced riser joints could be pre 1930? Thanks, Nicola
Hi Nicola: Most makers copied Primus. The reinforced riser tube first appears on the Primus 2-pint stoves in 1925, one year after the recessed filler hole. Optimus seems to have followed Primus' lead almost within the year. So, the un-reinforced riser is likely to be the earliest, in my view. P
@abbahco1 Thanks Peter, everything makes sense. In fact on the not reinforced risers is easy to break the solder also when tightening the burner… and is not common to find un-repaired risers like these. With Phoebus (yesterday I took a wrong reference) we know that from 1916 circa to 1945 one logo style has been used, we can date from 1938 the Made in Germany ones, but to date the earlier models we should clearly refer to other details like this. So thanks for sharing. My mistakes apart Knee stove could be so dated around 28-38 (+- 2) decade, considering when Primus made the first update to the riser construction. Nicola
I have a 1924 (N) Primus No. 5 with no riser reinforcement and a 1925 (O) No. 1 with. 1924 was also the first year of the "improved" silent burner (R 139, later 4139, replacing R 133) with removeable perforated cap (rather than fixed perforated screen and solid cap). Peter
@abbahco1 so Knee model from 1928 (+-2 years) to 1938 is plausible considering the introduction in 1925 circa of the reinforced riser base by Primus. On Phoebus catalog from 1930 I have seen that “scarce” Mickey Mouse filler cap present on one of my Phoebus 1. Probably it was in use also earlier, my stove has riser without base reinforcement. So we can think that Phoebus needed some time to adopt this improvement introduced by Primus in 1925 circa. Thanks for your many interesting considerations! Nicola
The Mickey Mouse filler caps appeared on Radius stoves from 1913 and Primus/Optimus briefly (Svea also) up to maybe 1920 or so. Peter
@abbahco1 yes I agree… up to my traveler Phöbus 1 that should be dated not earlier than 1916 we see a flat filler cap like the earlier Primuses, that could have been in use up to early 1930. It’s interesting this page of 1930 catalog: As you see the emblematic no 1 is still represented with flat filler cap, but as often happens, the illustration could be older than the catalog. Then we see the Mickey Mouse cap on models 0 and 2, while on 4 the more modern one. So it seems that post WW1 and during the ‘20s more styles of filler caps have been in use. The Mickey Mouse one is seldom seen so I suppose it didn’t have much fortune (compared to Svea for example) and was soon replaced by the latest style one. Considering the use of old illustrations, in this catalog we have the full mix, so we can agree that the only possible conclusion we can extract from it is that the latest filler cap style was in use by the end of 20s… we will never know when the Mickey Mouse replaced the flat one and exactly when it was replaced by the latest style one. Nicola
But, if we look at the combination of my Phoebus 1 without new riser and with Mickey Mouse cap, and if we agree that Phoebus introduced the new riser after Primus, we can agree that the Mickey Mouse cap was in use up to the second half of the 1920s. Consequently I can date this logo at least mid 1920: PS We know already that this logo was used from 1916 to 1945 circa, so I am not saying anything new. I am collocating this logo in mid 1920s because I am following a theory of an intermediate version of the logo between this style and the one present on my Phöbus 1 Traveler of 1916. The logo I am looking for has the light lines coming from the lighthouse with a wider angle if compared to the more horizontal ones visible on the photo above. Nicola
Correction, my Traveler 1 could be dated starting from 1916, when the older GB&R logo was abandoned. My Traveler 1 has the “new” MJR logo in combination with the old “Phöbus” text, that could have been in use up to late 1910s early 1920. Afterward there should be the “new” logo of my Traveler 1 in combination with the new Latin “Phoebus” text, probably early 1920s. We still need to find a stove with this combination. Next we have the “newer” logo that we are discussing in this post, with horizontal straight light lines coming from the light house that should have been in use from early mid 1920s as seen in my previous post. My theory is about an intermediate version between v2 and v3 (v1 is GB&R), a v2,5 with wider angle light lines. Nicola
Additionally, before the discovery of my Traveler 1 @OMC dated the v3 logo 1916-1945. He already updated this point of view in this discussion: PHOEBUS - PHÖBUS Gerson, Boehm & Rosenthal I add here that v3 right now could be datable early-mid 1920-1945, for sure not just after the abandoned GB&R one in 1916. For clarity: V1: V2: V3: V4 (post 1945): Possible V2,5, I can’t find a sharp image of it for better inspection: Nicola
