PHOEBUS - PHÖBUS Gerson, Boehm & Rosenthal

The Phoebus 635 lamp logo, with light differences, is the post war equivalent of post war stoves logo.

Nicola

 

@multi-cho some time ago shared some nice photos of early bun feet Phoebus 1 and 30 in traveling tins, datable around early 1920s like the 30 of @Doug L I have posted before.

For what is worth, these stoves all share the logo with slightly different light lines. The logo is 95% the same as the one used till 1945, probably the difference is caused by the stamping process or it is just a transitional logo, but in that period we assist to this, on the bun feet Phoebus:


Detail of logo used till 1945:

Detail of the logo I am talking about:


Nicola

 

Additional observation:

My Traveler Phöbus 1 with first version of MJR logo has bun feet too.

@OMC we were looking for the combination of first version of MJR logo with new Latin “Phoebus” text.

Well, could be that with the introduction of the “Phoebus” text we have this intermediate logo that a little later became the one that we see till 1945.

Nicola

 

Ok, I do for myself a little recap of events and informations, to put them all together.

Thanks to @Radler researches we know this:

Phoebus had always the same lighthouse logo with the letters "M J R", before, during and after the WWII and the name of the company was "Maschinenfabrik Josef Rosenthal".
The former name was "Gerson Boehm & Rosenthal, Wien". This name is known for the year 1901.

1911 Gerson Boehm died in April.

1916 was the year when the name "Gerson Boehm & Rosenthal" was abandoned. The new name was from now on "Maschinenfabrik Josef Rosenthal".

Josef Rosenthal became the only owner and the company changed the activities. The fuel and oil trade department was abandoned. Industrial production of lamps and metal ware are the only activities now.
(Published in: "Amtsblatt zur Wiener Zeitung" 9. Februar 1916)hal" was abandoned. The new name was from now on "Maschinenfabrik Josef Rosenthal".

So, 1901-1916 seems to be the period during which GB&R Made in Vienna Phöbus stoves belong:

Early Phöbus 1 GB&R


This is a representation of the GB&R Lighthouse logo that I like to identify as the V1:



The following examples should be even earlier than the above Phöbus 1, probably before the creation of the GB&R Lighthouse logo:



We see a simple GB&R stamped plain text like on earlier alcohol stoves like this one:



The probably “under license” Optimus 100 GB&R predates the full rights Phöbus stoves.

Let’s go back to 1916 when we think there was the change from GB&R to MJR company name and logo.

Going back to school, WW1 was a devastating moment for Austria and its economy. There are many documents describing this period and there is no need to report everything here. From 1914 to 1920 Austrian economy was grounded:

“Inflation soared, from an index of 129 in 1914 to 1589 in 1918, wiping out the cash savings of the middle-class. In terms of war damage to the economy, the war used up about 20 percent of the GDP.”

So presuming that, in 1916 the logo changed to the first MJR version and the production of stoves just continued normally in the middle of the war is hard to believe.

@gieorgijewski found this piece of information that I think is a logo trademark renewal of a logo registered in 1919, also if it is a strange JMR version:



1919 seems a more reasonable year for the new MJR logo introduction, when the Austrian economy was already trying to recovery from the war period.

So, probably, this bun feet No 1, collapsible, with new MJR logo and still Phöbus markings, could be datable from 1919 and not from 1916:

Early Phöbus No 1 Traveler Version


This is the representation of the new and first MJR Lighthouse logo that I like to identify as the V2:



This traveler is one of the few examples with new MJR logo and old Phöbus text.

Till today we haven’t seen a stove with this version of MJR logo and the new latin text “Phoebus” instead of “Phöbus”.

Till today the V2 logo has been considered a short lived transitional logo before the V3, that we have believed being in use from 1916 till the end of WW2 in 1945.

Next is a visual representation of the V3 logo, that always appears in conjunction with the new latin “Phoebus” text and Made in Austria top tank stamping (Made in Germany from 1938 to 1945):



For the considerations made above I would reconsider the dating of this V3 logo 1919-1945 circa.

So the V2 logo is appeared only in conjunction with the Phöbus marked stoves, for a very short period 1916-1919, more probably 1919 for the document by @gieorgijewski seen above.

The goal now is to put some models between the traveler with v2 logo and Phöbus text and all the more common Phoebus with V3 logo and Made in Austria top tank text, so we can maybe set a different initial date for the v3 logo.

By an extensive observation of the earliest Phoebus examples available, basically all the bun feet models like the Phöbus Traveler 1 with V2 logo, I have made a little sequence and also identified what I like to define a V2,5 logo.

This is for me the transitional V2,5 logo released in conjunction with the “Phoebus” text:



The distinctive detail of V2,5 logo is the wider angle of the light lines coming from the lighthouse, if compared to the more horizontal ones of V3 logo.

The examined models, because some of their characteristics, could be datable in the very early 1920s.

So starting point is the Phöbus Traveler 1 with V2 logo.

Next example in the sequence is this Traveler 1 posted by @multi-cho :




Observations on this example:

1: Introduction of Phoebus text
2: Bun feet and Mickey Mouse filler cap
3: Old Phöbus marked burner
4: Still no Made in Austria on tank top
5: V2,5 logo

Next examples in the sequence are these two “identical” models no 30 posted by @Doug L and @multi-cho:



Observations on these 30 examples:

1: Introduction of Phoebus text
2: Bun feet
4: Introduction of Made in Austria on tank top with a very light font style.
5: V2,5 logo

To note, especially, the Made in Austria font, lighter than the final version visible on all the later models with V3 logo:



Last example to put in this intermediate sequence is another traveler 1 by @multi-cho:



Observations on this example:

1: Introduction of Phoebus text
2: Bun feet and Mickey Mouse filler cap
3: Introduction of Made in Austria on tank top with final style font
5: V3 logo

So, after this model, we have all the stoves with the commonly known features that lasted up to 1945:

1: Phoebus text markings
2: Made in Austria or Made in Germany tank top text
3: V3 logo

From when all these characteristics were present all together?

Well, probably the early 1920, all these little changes from the Traveler Phöbus 1 with V2 logo probably happened in a short period of 1/2 years.

So it’s plausible to think that V3 logo was introduced in 1920/21, hardly later.

Last note to add is the adoption of the post WW2 revisited logo, the latest version, that I identify as V4:



Nicola

 

proper information from above is:
Our office start from 1919 - > thats logo was "proper" on that time
i can not give info when it started in Austria...

 

@gieorgijewski yes that information is useful.

Still I don’t understand the different lettering of the logo… but its style is the closest one to the V2 of Phöbus Traveler 1.

Nicola

 

@gieorgijewski another thing I am trying to understand is from when, in general, the Made in Austria started to be used by companies. If only after the war (late 1918) or if it was in use also before 1914…

EDIT

“In 1867, Austria formed a dual monarchy with Hungary: the Austro-Hungarian Empire (1867–1918). When this empire collapsed after the end of World War I in 1918, Austria was reduced to the main, mostly German-speaking areas of the empire (its current frontiers), and adopted the name The Republic of German-Austria. However, union with Germany and the chosen country name were forbidden by the Allies at the Treaty of Versailles. This led to the creation of the First Austrian Republic (1919-1933).”

It could be possible that “Made in Austria” could have sense only after 1919, when the first Austrian Republic was established.

So my dating of the first Made in Austria Phoebus stoves around 1920 could be possibly correct.

Nicola

 

10-02-1919 ->described as "Konw. Zw. Austria"



Just For You:
All answer - 14 11 1927 that sign was "proper"
started/or registred in 10 02 1919

 

09 1926 - moved property law Metallwarenfabrik Josef Rosenthal vorm. Gerson Boehm & Rosenthal
to MJR Metallwarenfabrik Josef Rosenthal Aktiengesellschaft
mean date of conversion firm

 

@gieorgijewski many thanks now is all clear!

Nicola

 

@gieorgijewski what do you think about the JMR instead of MJR in the logo?

Nicola

 

Mrs. Rosenthal insisted not to share her bedroom with a "Metallwarenfabrik". Too many people in there! Mr. Josef Rosenthal, her husband agreed to her.

 

Hello @Radler , thanks for your intervention.

I don’t exactly understand what you mean, is that in relation with the JMR logo variant?

Thanks,

Nicola

 

@OMC I correct you for your previous message (Oct 19 2020) regarding the MJR logo on this Phoebus 100 set

The MJR logo on that no 100 is the post 1945 V4, not the earliest MJR logo I identified as V2.

Is the same as the one on Ian’s 17s:



This is another Phoebus 100 of the same post 1945 period:



To quote @Radler on 17s discussion, the “Original Phoebus” engraving was introduced after 1945.

Nicola

 

@Nicola Francesco Elia @gieorgijewski

I have been following this exploration for some time, and I thank you for your work.

One area I think needs a bit more “evidence” is the suggested hiatus in production from 1914 to circa 1918.

Best regards

Tony

 

@Tony Press thanks and I speak for myself: this research, like others I am doing, are mainly for my learning of facts that for many of the older members are already clear. If during the process I can discover or enlighten something new, that is a real plus and I am happy to share with everybody my thoughts.

1914-1918 was a complicated moment for Austria… I can say that is absolutely possible that what was in process by GB&R continued till 1916 and the new formed MJR for sure was facing two terrible years from 1916 to 1918, so my guess is that during these two years is hard to believe that big things happened for the MJR company in relation to stoves, that’s why I indicated 1916-1919 or just 1919 as the “beginning” moment for MJR.

“Especially the last two years of the war were very harsh for the Austrian population. After the devastating winter of 1916/17, the so-called "Steckrübenwinter", when in addition to turnips, usually used as food for livestock, there was almost nothing to eat, even the most basic groceries were scarce and out of desperation people began to eat dogs and cats as well. The food available was supposed to go mainly to soldiers at the front, but it was never enough, also causing thousands of starvation deaths in the army. Several times the Austrian government had to ask the German government not only for aid in weapons and ammunition, but also in food. The civilian population was so weak and worn out that the outbreak of “Spanish flu” in 1918 caused hundreds of thousands of deaths. In Vienna, in just one week, more than 800 people died, including the well-known painter Egon Schiele.”

Nicola

 

imo JMR is "any" mistake...
in faleristic, heraldry "way of reading" is codified, described
in that case - we have linear - one line - reading effect - repeated in graphical form/sign
in text is MJR ...

 

@gieorgijewski ok thanks for the explanation. So basically we have confirmation about the first MJR logo registered in Austria on February 10 1919.

Thanks,

Nicola

 

Hello,

a new observation that will help to put into a sequence earliest Phoebus models with V3 logo and Made in Austria on tank top, so the more common examples.

This observation starts from the discussion that I had with @abbahco1 regarding Phoebus burner riser tubes.

We agreed that Primus introduced in 1925 circa (@igh371 you can confirm this date too?) a base reinforcement for the burner riser tubes.

This reinforcement was adopted by Phoebus too and logically this should have happened a little later than Primus, so let’s say around 1925/1926.

So till today, for Phoebus, we had 2 riser styles to look at, with or without base reinforcement. This difference was an indicator of pre or post 1926 circa.

Yesterday I was looking at my pre-1916 Phöbus 1 and I noticed that the riser looked particularly chubby.

I took a measurement and its external diameter is 19mm. This is the stove:



After I noticed this I took the measurement of the riser tube of my earliest Phoebus Made in Austria with V3 logo and Mickey Mouse filler cap.

Surprisingly its riser is as well 19mm and as well without base reinforcement. So this would define this stove as earliest example just after the examples with V2 and V2,5 logos. It can be dated from 1919-1920 and not much later. This is the stove:



After this one, I took the measurement of the riser of my “pre-1926” Phoebus V3 logo Made in Austria with riser without reinforcement and already newer filler cap. Well from this model onward we have a riser with 16,5mm circa external diameter. This is the stove:



After this, probably post “1926”, we have the Phoebus stoves with latest riser style with base reinforcement:



So in conclusion we have 3 riser styles:

1: Pre 1916 and early 1920 19mm riser. On post 1919 models it should be in conjunction with Mickey Mouse filler cap style.

2: Pre “1926” 16,5mm riser without base reinforcement, that could be found probably in conjunction with Mickey Mouse and later filler caps.

3: Post “1926” risers with base reinforcement.

Nicola

 

@igh371 @gieorgijewski would be interesting to take the measurement of the riser diameter in this example: GB&R Optimus no.1 Vienna

Also a measurement of early genuine Optimus 1 riser of same period could be an indicator.

If that GB&R Optimus 1 has a 19mm riser could be an indicator of where that stove has been manufactured.

Nicola